needless to say Stefan, I'm really disappointed by the personal attitude that shines true in this reply of yours, and the refusal for a normal conversation with facts, arguments (feelings are also okay, but loading shit on another person is not okay).<br>
<br>So let me be clear that I'm not responding to you, as I have no desire to continue this type of exchange, but for the community. Since I could only discern one cogent counter-argument, here is my reply to that one:<br>
<br>* <in fact all peer production projects *are* self-sustaining. That<br>
is part of their positive feedback cycle. Probably you are talking of<br>
something else.><br><br>Peer production projects can be collectively sustainable by relying on a continuous stream on voluntary contributions, but they do presently not sustain their members, who are usually paid by for-profit companies or as freelancers on a marketplace ... i.e. the commons is not independently sustainable for its members; this is why I propose that commoners/peer producers create their own structures for a more autonomous cycle of reproduction.<br>
<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 6:10 PM, Stefan Merten <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:smerten@oekonux.de">smerten@oekonux.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi Michel!<br>
<br>
Finally I got through to your mail. Frankly I'm surprised how big the<br>
gap actually is between you and anybody else I know. I hope that your<br>
contributions to Oekonux did not bend you too much...<br>
<br>
Last month (30 days ago) Michel Bauwens wrote:<br>
> It seems �neither you nor Jacob understands the difference between<br>
> commodification and self-sustaining commons, oh well ..<br>
<br>
Well, in fact all peer production projects *are* self-sustaining. That<br>
is part of their positive feedback cycle. Probably you are talking of<br>
something else. Never mind...<br>
<br>
> right now the (free software) commons that you so enthusiastically support<br>
> exclusively survive through commodified labour and wages;<br>
<br>
Which is obviously wrong. But I understand that you *need* to ignore<br>
facts to push your program through.<br>
<br>
The only thing I'm *really* interested in: Why do you feel the need to<br>
push through such esoteric stuff? I know these guys talking about<br>
money trickery since 20 years. Little has changed since then -<br>
especially not there presumptuous behavior and their ignorance of<br>
reality. I unterstand that they invaded your project - as they do with<br>
every project they can get hold of. Did you welcome them because their<br>
presumptuous behavior kept your project alive?<br>
<br>
> there are better<br>
> ways in which income is not tied to work;<br>
<br>
Indeed. For instance commons-based peer production - unless you mean<br>
income as dollars. In fact exchange based systems are historically the<br>
only ones which tie income to labor explicitly - this is there life<br>
blood.<br>
<br>
> I'm not an anarchist, much more of a marxist, therefore, like Marx,<br>
<br>
What I understand is that you have no idea of either of these leftist<br>
streams. So you may be interested in learning that Marx refused to be<br>
called a Marxist.<br>
<br>
> but it is perfectly okay to support capitalist forms of money exclusively as<br>
> you do,<br>
<br>
If I want to abolish all forms of money by making it superfluous then<br>
I support money. Frankly that's too much ignorance of reality for me<br>
to understand...<br>
<br>
<br>
In a way I'm really sad. I really had hoped that someday you would<br>
return to a common basis but in fact you dig deeper and deeper into<br>
your idealist (which is BTW the opposite of Marx *and* Marxists) and<br>
often enough esoteric stuff.<br>
<br>
Well, let me say that I appreciate the part of my life I shared with<br>
you. It was a pleasure to me. However, finally I quit hoping that<br>
these days can come back. I can only hope that your confusion is not<br>
triggered by personal problems which let you look for an escape from<br>
reality.<br>
<br>
<br>
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Gr��e<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Stefan<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>
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