[P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge

Fri Nov 25 16:13:13 CET 2011

hi natalie,

I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of',
but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen
hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one ..

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:

>   Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal
> acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many
> cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a
> Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people
> because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal
> relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting
> for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS
> protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than
> full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a
> mockery-just another kind of segregation.
>
>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM
> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the
> Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <christian at siefkes.net>wrote:
>
>> Michel Bauwens wrote:
>> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes <
>> christian at siefkes.net>wrote:
>> >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your
>> goals?
>> >> > Where do you draw the line?
>> >
>> > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces
>> > such as racism, genderism, etc ..
>>
>> Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as
>> your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist,
>> anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is
>> likely do to more bad than good.
>>
>> Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while,
>> of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence
>> it
>> is equally 'anti-p2p'.
>>
>
>
> well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an
> ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic
> distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety,
> catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but
> find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I
> disagree with this,  but I find it has little practical importance in the
> cooperation
>
>>
>> > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and
>> you
>> > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her?
>> >
>> > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians,
>> whose
>> > values I object to ...
>>
>> I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible
>> more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights
>> about free software.
>
>
> they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the
> cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the
> whole population ..
>
>
>
>> Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little
>> piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views:
>> http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from
>> using
>> his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course.
>>
>> So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a
>> problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the
>> other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such
>> standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what
>> anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is
>> proposing to do.
>>
>
> I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party
> organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force;
> but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source
> libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they
> are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
>
>>
>> And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a
>> project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them
>> from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be
>> the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope
>> we
>> agree on that?
>>
>
> yes
>
>
>
>>
>> > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3
>> > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
>>
>> "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it
>> seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near
>> candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances
>> will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance
>> for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
>>
>
>
> ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like;
> I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I
> respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal
> political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key
> goals
>
> at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation
> require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained
>
> Michel
>
>
>
>> Best regards
>>        Christian
>>
>> --
>> |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- christian at siefkes.net -------
>> | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/
>> |    Peer Production Everywhere:       http://peerconomy.org/wiki/
>> |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 --
>> It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to
>> live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of
>> children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is
>> conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that
>> enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of
>> the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling
>> of
>> feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible.
>>        -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
>>
>>
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>
>
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