[P2P-F] self-regulating markets

Fri Jun 24 07:58:10 CEST 2011

please do, we love that 'eso' stuff ..

Michel

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 12:36 AM, <adavans at aol.com> wrote:

> Groan....maybe....alright! Deal!
>
> I'm still trying to find that utopian "CenterPlace Regional Development
> Strategy" stuff I wrote up about the RLDS Church and 'zionic community
> development.'  It ought to be worth a few g'faws!
>
> Regards
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> To: P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
> Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2011 5:08 am
> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] self-regulating markets
>
>
> Alan,
>
> anything in your files that you could publish in a non-lazy way with us?
>  On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:56 PM, <adavans at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Thom as addressed those concerns as well, Apostolis.
>>
>> Thom is a big believer in building city-regional economies. A big Jane
>> Jacobs man, as he should be!  Because of his interest in regional economics
>> he has been able to systematically connect-the-dots between the Mondragon
>> and Emilian-Romagnan experiences and that of the Swiss WIR prototype.
>>
>> He and I have both written about this stuff for over two decades
>> now....I'm just too gosh darn lazy to publish. ;
>>
>> Another body of work you should find useful is that of Chris Cook and his
>> Open Capital concept:http://www.opencapital.net.
>>
>> Regards
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> From: Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xekoukou at gmail.com>
>> To: thg at mindspring.com
>> Cc: P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
>> Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2011 2:26 am
>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] self-regulating markets
>>
>> Yes , I  was just confused because of my english and because it is a broad
>> definition that is not mentioned a lot.
>>
>>  Yes the fact that we use our money is very important. One important
>> thing that could be used in Lets and is used in my system is this:
>> When someone is given a loan, the own that gives the loan, product(money)
>> should have the responsibility to get the other a job to give his debt back,
>> if he doesnt find a job for him, then he loses the credit he received..
>>
>>  I recently read a bit about the WIR bank and how he was given assets,
>> real money to allow a balance to go negative. Then Kevin very well said that
>> negative balances can be backed by future work.
>>
>>  I go even further and say that the borrower can only give back the debt
>> when others employ him or buy his products. The borrower can only give the
>> promise that when asked about one of his product, he will give it to repay
>> his debt. The market is not controlled by him and he is not responsible. The
>> lender should be the one to lose his credit, since the borrower told him to
>> ask him of a product and he will provide.
>>
>>  This is very important if we are to have flow of products in the
>> economy. Someone will buy a product if someone else buys his product. The
>> fact that in a transaction we differentiate the buyer from the seller is
>> fundamentally flawed.
>>
>>  The buyer is also a seller. The employee is also the employer.
>>
>>  So we could change the LETS system to give an incentive to people to
>> form  circles.
>>
>>  Let me now guess that the absence of such a system is the reason why
>> LETS communities prefer to be isolated, to keep their credits locally.
>>
>>  2011/6/23 Thomas Greco <thg at mindspring.com>
>>
>>> **
>>> It's not all that complicated.
>>> Yes, LETS is a form of mutual credit clearing.
>>> Credit clearing simply allows us to use "our" money (that we create in
>>> the process of buying/selling) instead of "their" money, which must be
>>> borrowed from a bank or earned from someone else who borrowed it from a
>>> bank.
>>>
>>> If I do some work for you, we must agree upon a price. Your account is
>>> debited and my account is credited for the same amount. I can then use my
>>> credits to buy whatever I want, at an agreed price, from someone else in the
>>> system. You must eventually provide value to someone in order to bring your
>>> balance back to zero. If you default, the collective membership bears the
>>> burden of that instead of me personally suffering the loss.
>>> The system must have sufficient revenues to cover such losses as well as
>>> its operating expenses.
>>> I've explained all of this many times in my writings.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thomas H. Greco, Jr.thg at mindspring.com
>>> Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
>>> Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net
>>> Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com
>>> Archive Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com <http://www.reinventingmoney.com/>
>>> Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
>>> Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
>>> My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization"
>>> can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
>>>
>>>
>>>   On 06/22/2011 4:33 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis wrote:
>>>
>>> I tried to find information about mutual credit clearing Unions. I
>>> couldnt find much, so I guess that the name itself explains it. I suppose
>>> that LETS is such a system.
>>>
>>>  Let me make an example so as to see if we are talking about the same
>>> method of exchange and to clarify things.
>>>
>>>  We have John, Michael and all the others. John is making furniture. In
>>> fact he has 5 different kind of furniture that he is making. Michael is a
>>> software engineer, he is paid by the hour and has expertise in a number of
>>> programming languages and frameworks. Both of them had done previous work
>>> and they have a reputation that distinguishes them from other of the same
>>> work.
>>>
>>>  John decided that he wants to have a site advertising his furniture so
>>> he goes to Michael and tells him to make him a site. Michael and John make a
>>> contract. Michael through the (system)site knows  at which proportionality
>>> has john currency, ie furnitute been exchanged with other currencies,
>>> products even if that exchange is indirect. The system transforms to him
>>> through past transactions or future contracts the currency of furniture into
>>> the products he wants. This way Michael has an exact understanding of the
>>> pleasure he recieves at a specific time vs the work he will have to do now.
>>>
>>>  John on the other hand understands the amount of 'happiness he will
>>> receive' , ie the product. There is no need for such a transformation.
>>>
>>>  Both now have enough information to start trading, decide the amount of
>>> work each one will be obliged to do and at what time.
>>>
>>>  Lets just say now that Michael now has a contract with John that allows
>>> him to ask for a specific number of furniture of a specific design till a
>>> specific date. That means that after this date John has no obligation to
>>> make these furniture. He has no debt and he is free to abandon his workshop,
>>> retire.
>>> Till that date Michael has to find work for John so as to transform his
>>> currency into another he likes. The system told him that most likely he will
>>> transform it into the products he likes but it is up to him.
>>>
>>>  Let us say that someone likes the furniture of john and wants to trade.
>>> At this time he can trade directly with John or with Michael.
>>>
>>>  As you can see if John decides to abandon his obligations the one to be
>>> harmed will be Michael. This system doesnt have an abstract sense of money.
>>> It tries to transform the currencies into currencies that we want.
>>>
>>>  How much value do 500 dollars mean to you?  500 dollars have different
>>> value per person depending on the things they can buy with them. After a
>>> period of time you will still have 500 dollars but the things you can buy
>>> are different because the prices change. Not only that, the person or node
>>> that has the money plays an important role on the value of money. Big
>>> corporations buy stock with a lower price than smaller ones. Their value of
>>> money is different.
>>>
>>>  *The topology of the graph plays an important role in the
>>> transformation of money into goods. *
>>>
>>>  So Dollars or any kind of such a currency, like gold, doesnt contain
>>> within it the pleasure, happiness we will receive with those money.
>>>
>>>  Now If someone were to give us how happy he would be if he were in a
>>> specific situation( number of products, amount of work), if everyone did
>>> that, I could take all those people and organize them in such a way,
>>> automatically creating circles of flows, automatically finding the prices
>>> and amount of products that are to be traded. If I am given enough
>>> information, I could even tell an engineer how his invention will change the
>>> flow of products and prices.
>>>  I havent made the insertion of data user friendly yet, but I think that
>>> It takes all parameters into account and the price is determined in such a
>>> way so as that the individual maximizes his gain. You must also understand
>>> that noone can cheat. If someone says something different from what he wants
>>> , he will get worse results.
>>>
>>>  Savings equal the amount of money on negative balances. There are
>>> methods to stop people from not paying and this should be enforced globally.
>>> If someone has a flow of products every day, if he doesnt want to pay old
>>> debts, he could be dropped out of the system, not be able to buy new things.
>>> Other people could also insure someones debt.
>>>
>>>  As old debts are transformed into new debts by making new contracts,
>>> savings change position from one person to another as debt changes hands.
>>> You can undestand that those who will have debt will be the ones that are
>>> thought as the most productive and usefull in the future. Another method for
>>> savings allocation is proportionality of your savings to the goods you will
>>> want in the future.
>>>
>>>  What I am saying here IS experimental. What is sure though is the fact
>>> that it requires a lot of information to make it work.
>>>
>>>  Best regards...
>>>
>>> 2011/6/22 Thomas Greco <thg at mindspring.com>
>>>
>>>> Dear Apostolis,
>>>>
>>>> Below are the links to my websites, and the title of my latest book.
>>>>
>>>> Clearing circles have been operating successfully for many years. It is
>>>> an old idea.
>>>> Now, the challenge is to optimize the procedures and protocols and take
>>>> it to scale, then network local exchanges together to provide an means of
>>>> payment that is locally controlled but globally useful.
>>>>
>>>> A debit balance in a credit clearing exchange can be looked at as a
>>>> loan. It is a draft upon a line of credit that is extended by the collective
>>>> membership. In a clearing system some accounts must be allowed to be
>>>> negative. The total of negative balances (or positive balances) can be
>>>> looked at as the supply of internal currency.
>>>>
>>>> Savings and investment, or *finance *is a separate function from *
>>>> exchange*.
>>>> Yes, they are related, but require different mechanisms.
>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>> Thomas H. Greco, Jr.thg at mindspring.com
>>>> Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
>>>> Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net
>>>> Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com
>>>> Archive Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com <http://www.reinventingmoney.com/>
>>>> Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
>>>> Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
>>>> My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization"
>>>> can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 06/21/2011 7:35 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thomas has written a few books and is in touch with many local credit
>>>> commons initiatives ...
>>>>
>>>> he's in cc,
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 3:38 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
>>>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What you say was exactly the idea with which I started working.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Where is more info about it? Has Thomas created such a clearing
>>>>> house?
>>>>> Most importantly, has he found an algorithm to create trading circles?
>>>>> has he studied the macroeconomy of such a system?
>>>>>
>>>>>  Why do we need to see the global network?
>>>>>
>>>>>  Well, in order to be able to make investments. New investments about
>>>>> a specific product can have indirect consequences to the whole network. We
>>>>> may then have to compute what percentage of the investment will have to be
>>>>> paid by each peer.
>>>>>
>>>>>  We need to know about the global network in order to decide to which
>>>>> persons we can store our savings and the ability of those currencies to be
>>>>> transfered into goods that we will want in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>>  It is important to think of each peer as a producer, a seller, an
>>>>> investor. Investors need information.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   2011/6/21 Kevin Carson <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> El 21/06/11 04:23, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis dijo:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  > What I am about to say needs testing and more thinking but let me
>>>>>> tell you
>>>>>> > what I have done so far to create an alternative to the free market.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  We're probably using the term "free market" in a different sense.
>>>>>>  The
>>>>>> market can refer simply to the cash nexus, or the arena of commodity
>>>>>> production for monetized exchange.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it can also be used, by market anarchist like me, to describe the
>>>>>> entire spectrum of voluntary transactions and relationships --
>>>>>> including cooperatives, gift economies, communal property, informal
>>>>>> barter, mutual aid, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>  I have created a new class of currencies that are very similar to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> very
>>>>>> >>  old currencies. What if each person used the creation of his work
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> >>  currency. When someone owns 5 paul's chairs for example , It is
>>>>>> meant
>>>>>> >> that
>>>>>> >>  Paul will have to give him those 5 chairs in the future if he asks
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> >> them.
>>>>>> >>  This is then some kind of loan. Someone gives something now in
>>>>>> exchange
>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>> >>  something in the future. If he doesnt need the chairs, he might
>>>>>> have to
>>>>>> >>  exchange Paul's chairs with something else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  That sounds a lot like Tom Greco's mutual credit clearing networks,
>>>>>> which I'm a big fan of.  Every member runs a balance that looks a lot
>>>>>> like the balance in a checking account.  When you sell a good or
>>>>>> service to a member your balance goes up, and when you purchase same
>>>>>> it goes down.  And the system allows people to run negative balances,
>>>>>> so long as the negative balance is limited to some value relative to
>>>>>> their average monthly sales and the account continues to be active and
>>>>>> turn over.  So "money" is essentially backed by the goods being
>>>>>> traded; rather than being a store of value from past production, it is
>>>>>> simply a unit of account for denominating trade of present-for-present
>>>>>> or present-for-future production.  Nobody has to have a store of money
>>>>>> from past production in order to trade, so there's no problem of
>>>>>> economic stagnation for want of liquidity ("there's not enough money
>>>>>> in circulation").  People create money by trading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>  Kevin Carson
>>>>>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>>>>>> Mutualist Blog:  Free Market Anti-Capitalism
>>>>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
>>>>>> The Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
>>>>>> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
>>>>>> Organization Theory:  A Libertarian Perspective
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  --
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>>
>>>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>
>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely yours,
>>
>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>
>>
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