[P2P-F] self-regulating markets
Thomas Greco
thg at mindspring.com
Thu Jun 23 16:38:11 CEST 2011
Yes, everyone is both a producer and a consumer. Alvin Toffler coined
the term "prosumer."
You can call the seller a lender and the buyer a borrower, if you like.
The seller has in a way "loaned' real value to the buyer/borrower.
The WIR required that lines of credit be secured by the pledge of
collateral. That provides surety of contract.
You say, "When someone is given a loan, the own that gives the loan,
product(money) should have the responsibility to get the other a job to
give his debt back, if he doesnt find a job for him, then he loses the
credit he received.."
Good luck selling that idea. As a borrower you want me to advance real
value to you and find you a job besides?
What is YOUR responsibility? It's up to you to provide something that
community values and wants to buy.
Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
thg at mindspring.com
Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net
Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com
Archive Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com
Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization"
can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
On 06/23/2011 2:26 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis wrote:
> Yes , I was just confused because of my english and because it is a
> broad definition that is not mentioned a lot.
>
> Yes the fact that we use our money is very important. One important
> thing that could be used in Lets and is used in my system is this:
> When someone is given a loan, the own that gives the loan,
> product(money) should have the responsibility to get the other a job
> to give his debt back, if he doesnt find a job for him, then he loses
> the credit he received..
>
> I recently read a bit about the WIR bank and how he was given assets,
> real money to allow a balance to go negative. Then Kevin very well
> said that negative balances can be backed by future work.
>
> I go even further and say that the borrower can only give back the
> debt when others employ him or buy his products. The borrower can only
> give the promise that when asked about one of his product, he will
> give it to repay his debt. The market is not controlled by him and he
> is not responsible. The lender should be the one to lose his credit,
> since the borrower told him to ask him of a product and he will provide.
>
> This is very important if we are to have flow of products in the
> economy. Someone will buy a product if someone else buys his product.
> The fact that in a transaction we differentiate the buyer from the
> seller is fundamentally flawed.
>
> The buyer is also a seller. The employee is also the employer.
>
> So we could change the LETS system to give an incentive to people to
> form circles.
>
> Let me now guess that the absence of such a system is the reason why
> LETS communities prefer to be isolated, to keep their credits locally.
>
> 2011/6/23 Thomas Greco <thg at mindspring.com <mailto:thg at mindspring.com>>
>
> It's not all that complicated.
> Yes, LETS is a form of mutual credit clearing.
> Credit clearing simply allows us to use "our" money (that we
> create in the process of buying/selling) instead of "their" money,
> which must be borrowed from a bank or earned from someone else who
> borrowed it from a bank.
>
> If I do some work for you, we must agree upon a price. Your
> account is debited and my account is credited for the same amount.
> I can then use my credits to buy whatever I want, at an agreed
> price, from someone else in the system. You must eventually
> provide value to someone in order to bring your balance back to
> zero. If you default, the collective membership bears the burden
> of that instead of me personally suffering the loss.
> The system must have sufficient revenues to cover such losses as
> well as its operating expenses.
> I've explained all of this many times in my writings.
>
>
> Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
> thg at mindspring.com <mailto:thg at mindspring.com>
> Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
> Beyond Money:http://beyondmoney.net
> Tom's News and Views:http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com
> Archive Website:http://www.Reinventingmoney.com
> Photo gallery:http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
> Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
> My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization"
> can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
>
>
> On 06/22/2011 4:33 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis wrote:
>> I tried to find information about mutual credit clearing Unions.
>> I couldnt find much, so I guess that the name itself explains it.
>> I suppose that LETS is such a system.
>>
>> Let me make an example so as to see if we are talking about the
>> same method of exchange and to clarify things.
>>
>> We have John, Michael and all the others. John is making
>> furniture. In fact he has 5 different kind of furniture that he
>> is making. Michael is a software engineer, he is paid by the hour
>> and has expertise in a number of programming languages and
>> frameworks. Both of them had done previous work and they have a
>> reputation that distinguishes them from other of the same work.
>>
>> John decided that he wants to have a site advertising his
>> furniture so he goes to Michael and tells him to make him a site.
>> Michael and John make a contract. Michael through the
>> (system)site knows at which proportionality has john currency,
>> ie furnitute been exchanged with other currencies, products even
>> if that exchange is indirect. The system transforms to him
>> through past transactions or future contracts the currency of
>> furniture into the products he wants. This way Michael has an
>> exact understanding of the pleasure he recieves at a specific
>> time vs the work he will have to do now.
>>
>> John on the other hand understands the amount of 'happiness he
>> will receive' , ie the product. There is no need for such a
>> transformation.
>>
>> Both now have enough information to start trading, decide the
>> amount of work each one will be obliged to do and at what time.
>>
>> Lets just say now that Michael now has a contract with John that
>> allows him to ask for a specific number of furniture of a
>> specific design till a specific date. That means that after this
>> date John has no obligation to make these furniture. He has no
>> debt and he is free to abandon his workshop, retire.
>> Till that date Michael has to find work for John so as to
>> transform his currency into another he likes. The system told him
>> that most likely he will transform it into the products he likes
>> but it is up to him.
>>
>> Let us say that someone likes the furniture of john and wants to
>> trade. At this time he can trade directly with John or with Michael.
>>
>> As you can see if John decides to abandon his obligations the one
>> to be harmed will be Michael. This system doesnt have an abstract
>> sense of money. It tries to transform the currencies into
>> currencies that we want.
>>
>> How much value do 500 dollars mean to you? 500 dollars have
>> different value per person depending on the things they can buy
>> with them. After a period of time you will still have 500 dollars
>> but the things you can buy are different because the prices
>> change. Not only that, the person or node that has the money
>> plays an important role on the value of money. Big corporations
>> buy stock with a lower price than smaller ones. Their value of
>> money is different.
>>
>> *The topology of the graph plays an important role in the
>> transformation of money into goods. *
>>
>> So Dollars or any kind of such a currency, like gold, doesnt
>> contain within it the pleasure, happiness we will receive with
>> those money.
>>
>> Now If someone were to give us how happy he would be if he were
>> in a specific situation( number of products, amount of work), if
>> everyone did that, I could take all those people and organize
>> them in such a way, automatically creating circles of flows,
>> automatically finding the prices and amount of products that are
>> to be traded. If I am given enough information, I could even tell
>> an engineer how his invention will change the flow of products
>> and prices.
>> I havent made the insertion of data user friendly yet, but I
>> think that It takes all parameters into account and the price is
>> determined in such a way so as that the individual maximizes his
>> gain. You must also understand that noone can cheat. If someone
>> says something different from what he wants , he will get worse
>> results.
>>
>> Savings equal the amount of money on negative balances. There are
>> methods to stop people from not paying and this should be
>> enforced globally. If someone has a flow of products every day,
>> if he doesnt want to pay old debts, he could be dropped out of
>> the system, not be able to buy new things. Other people could
>> also insure someones debt.
>>
>> As old debts are transformed into new debts by making new
>> contracts, savings change position from one person to another as
>> debt changes hands. You can undestand that those who will have
>> debt will be the ones that are thought as the most productive and
>> usefull in the future. Another method for savings allocation is
>> proportionality of your savings to the goods you will want in the
>> future.
>>
>> What I am saying here IS experimental. What is sure though is the
>> fact that it requires a lot of information to make it work.
>>
>> Best regards...
>>
>> 2011/6/22 Thomas Greco <thg at mindspring.com
>> <mailto:thg at mindspring.com>>
>>
>> Dear Apostolis,
>>
>> Below are the links to my websites, and the title of my
>> latest book.
>>
>> Clearing circles have been operating successfully for many
>> years. It is an old idea.
>> Now, the challenge is to optimize the procedures and
>> protocols and take it to scale, then network local exchanges
>> together to provide an means of payment that is locally
>> controlled but globally useful.
>>
>> A debit balance in a credit clearing exchange can be looked
>> at as a loan. It is a draft upon a line of credit that is
>> extended by the collective membership. In a clearing system
>> some accounts must be allowed to be negative. The total of
>> negative balances (or positive balances) can be looked at as
>> the supply of internal currency.
>>
>> Savings and investment, or *finance *is a separate function
>> from *exchange*.
>> Yes, they are related, but require different mechanisms.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>> Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
>> thg at mindspring.com <mailto:thg at mindspring.com>
>> Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
>> Beyond Money:http://beyondmoney.net
>> Tom's News and Views:http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com
>> Archive Website:http://www.Reinventingmoney.com
>> Photo gallery:http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
>> Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
>> My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization"
>> can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
>>
>>
>> On 06/21/2011 7:35 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>> Thomas has written a few books and is in touch with many
>>> local credit commons initiatives ...
>>>
>>> he's in cc,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 3:38 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>> <xekoukou at gmail.com <mailto:xekoukou at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> What you say was exactly the idea with which I started
>>> working.
>>>
>>> Where is more info about it? Has Thomas created such a
>>> clearing house?
>>> Most importantly, has he found an algorithm to create
>>> trading circles? has he studied the macroeconomy of such
>>> a system?
>>>
>>> Why do we need to see the global network?
>>>
>>> Well, in order to be able to make investments. New
>>> investments about a specific product can have indirect
>>> consequences to the whole network. We may then have to
>>> compute what percentage of the investment will have to
>>> be paid by each peer.
>>>
>>> We need to know about the global network in order to
>>> decide to which persons we can store our savings and the
>>> ability of those currencies to be transfered into goods
>>> that we will want in the future.
>>>
>>> It is important to think of each peer as a producer, a
>>> seller, an investor. Investors need information.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2011/6/21 Kevin Carson
>>> <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com>>
>>>
>>> El 21/06/11 04:23, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis dijo:
>>>
>>> > What I am about to say needs testing and more
>>> thinking but let me tell you
>>> > what I have done so far to create an alternative
>>> to the free market.
>>>
>>> We're probably using the term "free market" in a
>>> different sense. The
>>> market can refer simply to the cash nexus, or the
>>> arena of commodity
>>> production for monetized exchange.
>>>
>>> But it can also be used, by market anarchist like
>>> me, to describe the
>>> entire spectrum of voluntary transactions and
>>> relationships --
>>> including cooperatives, gift economies, communal
>>> property, informal
>>> barter, mutual aid, etc.
>>>
>>> >> I have created a new class of currencies that
>>> are very similar to the
>>> >> very
>>> >> old currencies. What if each person used the
>>> creation of his work as
>>> >> currency. When someone owns 5 paul's chairs for
>>> example , It is meant
>>> >> that
>>> >> Paul will have to give him those 5 chairs in the
>>> future if he asks for
>>> >> them.
>>> >> This is then some kind of loan. Someone gives
>>> something now in exchange
>>> >> for
>>> >> something in the future. If he doesnt need the
>>> chairs, he might have to
>>> >> exchange Paul's chairs with something else.
>>>
>>> That sounds a lot like Tom Greco's mutual credit
>>> clearing networks,
>>> which I'm a big fan of. Every member runs a balance
>>> that looks a lot
>>> like the balance in a checking account. When you
>>> sell a good or
>>> service to a member your balance goes up, and when
>>> you purchase same
>>> it goes down. And the system allows people to run
>>> negative balances,
>>> so long as the negative balance is limited to some
>>> value relative to
>>> their average monthly sales and the account
>>> continues to be active and
>>> turn over. So "money" is essentially backed by the
>>> goods being
>>> traded; rather than being a store of value from past
>>> production, it is
>>> simply a unit of account for denominating trade of
>>> present-for-present
>>> or present-for-future production. Nobody has to
>>> have a store of money
>>> from past production in order to trade, so there's
>>> no problem of
>>> economic stagnation for want of liquidity ("there's
>>> not enough money
>>> in circulation"). People create money by trading.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kevin Carson
>>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>>> Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism
>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
>>> The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead
>>> Manifesto
>>> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
>>> Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective
>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>
>>> Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sincerely yours,
>> Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely yours,
> Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>
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