[P2P-F] self-regulating markets

adavans at aol.com adavans at aol.com
Thu Jun 23 19:49:03 CEST 2011


Excellent point, Thom.  However....

Just imagine one of the WIRBank members happened to be a  labour union, a PEO or some other kind of workers' association and that a sizeable proportion or perhaps all of WIR members employed members of this union/PEO/association.  Doesn't this mean that labour would have the opportunity to issue the working capital credit that would form their own Swiss WIR denominated incomes?  

Regards
Alan

 

 


 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Greco <thg at mindspring.com>
To: Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xekoukou at gmail.com>
Cc: P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2011 7:38 am
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] self-regulating markets


              Yes, everyone is both a producer and a consumer. Alvin Toffler    coined the term "prosumer."
    
    You can call the seller a lender and the buyer a borrower, if you    like. The seller has in a way "loaned' real value to the    buyer/borrower.
    The WIR required that lines of credit be secured by the pledge of    collateral. That provides surety of contract.
    
    You say, "When someone is given a loan, the own that gives the loan,    product(money) should have the responsibility to get the other a job    to give his debt back, if he doesnt find a job for him, then he    loses the credit he received.."
    
    Good luck selling that idea. As a borrower you want me to advance    real value to you and find you a job besides? 
    What is YOUR responsibility? It's up to you to provide something    that community values and wants to buy.
    
    
Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
thg at mindspring.com
Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net 
Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com 
Archive Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com
Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" 
can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.

    
    On 06/23/2011 2:26 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis wrote:    
Yes , I  was just confused because of my english and      because it is a broad definition that is not mentioned a lot.      

      
      
Yes the fact that we use our money is very important. One        important thing that could be used in Lets and is used in my        system is this: 
      
When someone is given a loan, the own that gives the loan,        product(money) should have the responsibility to get the other a        job to give his debt back, if he doesnt find a job for him, then        he loses the credit he received..
      

      
      
I recently read a bit about the WIR bank and how he was given        assets, real money to allow a balance to go negative. Then Kevin        very well said that negative balances can be backed by future        work.
      
        
      
      
I go even further and say that the borrower can only give        back the debt when others employ him or buy his products. The        borrower can only give the promise that when asked about one of        his product, he will give it to repay his debt. The market is        not controlled by him and he is not responsible. The lender        should be the one to lose his credit, since the borrower told        him to ask him of a product and he will provide.
      

      
      
This is very important if we are to have flow of products in        the economy. Someone will buy a product if someone else buys his        product. The fact that in a transaction we differentiate the        buyer from the seller is fundamentally flawed.
      

      
      
The buyer is also a seller. The employee is also the        employer.
      

      
      
So we could change the LETS system to give an incentive to        people to form  circles.
      

      
      
Let me now guess that the absence of such a system is the        reason why LETS communities prefer to be isolated, to keep their        credits locally.
      

      
      
        
2011/6/23 Thomas Greco <thg at mindspring.com>
          
            
 It's not all that              complicated. 
              Yes, LETS is a form of mutual credit clearing.
              Credit clearing simply allows us to use "our" money (that              we create in the process of buying/selling) instead of              "their" money, which must be borrowed from a bank or              earned from someone else who borrowed it from a bank.
              
              If I do some work for you, we must agree upon a price.              Your account is debited and my account is credited for the              same amount. I can then use my credits to buy whatever I              want, at an agreed price, from someone else in the system.              You must eventually provide value to someone in order to              bring your balance back to zero. If you default, the              collective membership bears the burden of that instead of              me personally suffering the loss. 
              The system must have sufficient revenues to cover such              losses as well as its operating expenses. 
              I've explained all of this many times in my writings.              

                
                
Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
thg at mindspring.com
Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net 
Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com 
Archive Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com
Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" 
can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.

                
              
              
                
 On 06/22/2011 4:33 AM, Apostolis                  Xekoukoulotakis wrote:                  
I tried to find information                    about mutual credit clearing Unions. I couldnt find                    much, so I guess that the name itself explains it. I                    suppose that LETS is such a system.                    

                    
                    
Let me make an example so as to see if we are                      talking about the same method of exchange and to                      clarify things.
                    

                    
                    
We have John, Michael and all the others. John                      is making furniture. In fact he has 5 different                      kind of furniture that he is making. Michael is a                      software engineer, he is paid by the hour and has                      expertise in a number of programming languages and                      frameworks. Both of them had done previous work                      and they have a reputation that distinguishes them                      from other of the same work.
                    

                    
                    
John decided that he wants to have a site                      advertising his furniture so he goes to Michael                      and tells him to make him a site. Michael and John                      make a contract. Michael through the (system)site                      knows  at which proportionality has john currency,                      ie furnitute been exchanged with other currencies,                      products even if that exchange is indirect. The                      system transforms to him through past transactions                      or future contracts the currency of furniture into                      the products he wants. This way Michael has an                      exact understanding of the pleasure he recieves at                      a specific time vs the work he will have to do                      now.
                    

                    
                    
John on the other hand understands the amount                      of 'happiness he will receive' , ie the product.                      There is no need for such a transformation.
                    

                    
                    
Both now have enough information to start                      trading, decide the amount of work each one will                      be obliged to do and at what time. 
                    

                    
                    
Lets just say now that Michael now has a                      contract with John that allows him to ask for a                      specific number of furniture of a specific design                      till a specific date. That means that after this                      date John has no obligation to make these                      furniture. He has no debt and he is free to                      abandon his workshop, retire.
                    
Till that date Michael has to find work for                      John so as to transform his currency into another                      he likes. The system told him that most likely he                      will transform it into the products he likes but                      it is up to him. 
                    

                    
                    
Let us say that someone likes the furniture of                      john and wants to trade. At this time he can trade                      directly with John or with Michael.
                    

                    
                    
As you can see if John decides to abandon his                      obligations the one to be harmed will be Michael.                      This system doesnt have an abstract sense of                      money. It tries to transform the currencies into                      currencies that we want.
                    

                    
                    
How much value do 500 dollars mean to you?  500                      dollars have different value per person depending                      on the things they can buy with them. After a                      period of time you will still have 500 dollars but                      the things you can buy are different because the                      prices change. Not only that, the person or node                      that has the money plays an important role on the                      value of money. Big corporations buy stock with a                      lower price than smaller ones. Their value of                      money is different. 
                    

                    
                    
The topology of the graph plays an important                        role in the transformation of money into goods. 
                    

                    
                    
So Dollars or any kind of such a currency, like                      gold, doesnt contain within it the pleasure,                      happiness we will receive with those money.
                    

                    
                    
Now If someone were to give us how happy he                      would be if he were in a specific situation(                      number of products, amount of work), if everyone                      did that, I could take all those people and                      organize them in such a way, automatically                      creating circles of flows, automatically finding                      the prices and amount of products that are to be                      traded. If I am given enough information, I could                      even tell an engineer how his invention will                      change the flow of products and prices.
                    
                      
I havent made the insertion of data user                        friendly yet, but I think that It takes all                        parameters into account and the price is                        determined in such a way so as that the                        individual maximizes his gain. You must also                        understand that noone can cheat. If someone says                        something different from what he wants , he will                        get worse results.
                      

                      
                      
Savings equal the amount of money on negative                        balances. There are methods to stop people from                        not paying and this should be enforced globally.                        If someone has a flow of products every day, if                        he doesnt want to pay old debts, he could be                        dropped out of the system, not be able to buy                        new things. Other people could also insure                        someones debt.
                      

                      
                      
As old debts are transformed into new debts                        by making new contracts, savings change position                        from one person to another as debt changes                        hands. You can undestand that those who will                        have debt will be the ones that are thought as                        the most productive and usefull in the future.                        Another method for savings allocation is                        proportionality of your savings to the goods you                        will want in the future. 
                      

                      
                      
What I am saying here IS experimental. What                        is sure though is the fact that it requires a                        lot of information to make it work.
                      

                      
                      
Best regards...
                      
                        
                          

                            
 2011/6/22 Thomas                              Greco <thg at mindspring.com>
                              
                                
                                  Dear Apostolis,
                                  
                                  Below are the links to my websites,                                  and the title of my latest book.
                                  
                                  Clearing circles have been operating                                  successfully for many years. It is an                                  old idea.
                                  Now, the challenge is to optimize the                                  procedures and protocols and take it                                  to scale, then network local exchanges                                  together to provide an means of                                  payment that is locally controlled but                                  globally useful.
                                  
                                  A debit balance in a credit clearing                                  exchange can be looked at as a loan.                                  It is a draft upon a line of credit                                  that is extended by the collective                                  membership. In a clearing system some                                  accounts must be allowed to be                                  negative. The total of negative                                  balances (or positive balances) can be                                  looked at as the supply of internal                                  currency.
                                  
                                  Savings and investment, or finance                                  is a separate function from exchange.                                  
                                  Yes, they are related, but require                                  different mechanisms.
                                  
                                  Thomas
                                  
Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
thg at mindspring.com
Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net 
Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com 
Archive Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com
Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" 
can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.

                                  
                                    
 
                                      On 06/21/2011 7:35 PM, Michel                                      Bauwens wrote:                                      
Thomas has                                        written a few books and is in                                        touch with many local credit                                        commons initiatives ...
                                        
                                        he's in cc,
                                        
                                        Michel
                                        
                                        
On Wed,                                          Jun 22, 2011 at 3:38 AM,                                          Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xekoukou at gmail.com>                                          wrote:
                                          
What you                                            say was exactly the idea                                            with which I started                                            working.                                             

                                            
                                            
Where is more info                                              about it? Has Thomas                                              created such a clearing                                              house?                                               
 Most importantly,                                                has he found an                                                algorithm to create                                                trading circles? has he                                                studied the macroeconomy                                                of such a system?
                                              

                                              
                                              
Why do we need to see                                                the global network? 
                                              

                                              
                                              
Well, in order to be                                                able to make                                                investments. New                                                investments about a                                                specific product can                                                have indirect                                                consequences to the                                                whole network. We may                                                then have to compute                                                what percentage of the                                                investment will have to                                                be paid by each peer.
                                              

                                              
                                              
We need to know about                                                the global network in                                                order to decide to which                                                persons we can store our                                                savings and the ability                                                of those currencies to                                                be transfered into goods                                                that we will want in the                                                future. 
                                              

                                              
                                              
It is important to                                                think of each peer as a                                                producer, a seller, an                                                investor. Investors need                                                information.
                                              

                                              
                                              

                                              
                                              
                                                
                                                  
                                                    
                                                      2011/6/21 Kevin                                                      Carson <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com>
                                                      
                                                        
El 21/06/11                                                          04:23,                                                          Apostolis                                                          Xekoukoulotakis                                                          dijo:
                                                          
                                                        
                                                        
> What I                                                          am about to                                                          say needs                                                          testing and                                                          more thinking                                                          but let me                                                          tell you
                                                          > what I                                                          have done so                                                          far to create                                                          an alternative                                                          to the free                                                          market.
                                                          
                                                        
                                                        We're probably                                                        using the term                                                        "free market" in                                                        a different                                                        sense.  The
                                                        market can refer                                                        simply to the                                                        cash nexus, or                                                        the arena of                                                        commodity
                                                        production for                                                        monetized                                                        exchange.
                                                        
                                                        But it can also                                                        be used, by                                                        market anarchist                                                        like me, to                                                        describe the
                                                        entire spectrum                                                        of voluntary                                                        transactions and                                                        relationships --
                                                        including                                                        cooperatives,                                                        gift economies,                                                        communal                                                        property,                                                        informal
                                                        barter, mutual                                                        aid, etc.
                                                        

                                                          >>  I                                                          have created a                                                          new class of                                                          currencies                                                          that are very                                                          similar to the
                                                          >> very
                                                          >>  old                                                          currencies.                                                          What if each                                                          person used                                                          the creation                                                          of his work as
                                                          >>                                                           currency.                                                          When someone                                                          owns 5 paul's                                                          chairs for                                                          example , It                                                          is meant
                                                          >> that
                                                          >>  Paul                                                          will have to                                                          give him those                                                          5 chairs in                                                          the future if                                                          he asks for
                                                          >> them.
                                                          >>  This                                                          is then some                                                          kind of loan.                                                          Someone gives                                                          something now                                                          in exchange
                                                          >> for
                                                          >>                                                           something in                                                          the future. If                                                          he doesnt need                                                          the chairs, he                                                          might have to
                                                          >>                                                           exchange                                                          Paul's chairs                                                          with something                                                          else.
                                                          
                                                        
                                                        That sounds a                                                        lot like Tom                                                        Greco's mutual                                                        credit clearing                                                        networks,
                                                        which I'm a big                                                        fan of.  Every                                                        member runs a                                                        balance that                                                        looks a lot
                                                        like the balance                                                        in a checking                                                        account.  When                                                        you sell a good                                                        or
                                                        service to a                                                        member your                                                        balance goes up,                                                        and when you                                                        purchase same
                                                        it goes down.                                                         And the system                                                        allows people to                                                        run negative                                                        balances,
                                                        so long as the                                                        negative balance                                                        is limited to                                                        some value                                                        relative to
                                                        their average                                                        monthly sales                                                        and the account                                                        continues to be                                                        active and
                                                        turn over.  So                                                        "money" is                                                        essentially                                                        backed by the                                                        goods being
                                                        traded; rather                                                        than being a                                                        store of value                                                        from past                                                        production, it                                                        is
                                                        simply a unit of                                                        account for                                                        denominating                                                        trade of                                                        present-for-present
                                                        or                                                        present-for-future                                                        production.                                                         Nobody has to                                                        have a store of                                                        money
                                                        from past                                                        production in                                                        order to trade,                                                        so there's no                                                        problem of
                                                        economic                                                        stagnation for                                                        want of                                                        liquidity                                                        ("there's not                                                        enough money
                                                        in                                                        circulation").                                                         People create                                                        money by                                                        trading.
                                                        
                                                          --
                                                                                                                
                                                          
Kevin                                                          Carson
                                                          Center for a                                                          Stateless                                                          Society http://c4ss.org
                                                          Mutualist                                                          Blog:  Free                                                          Market                                                          Anti-Capitalism
                                                          http://mutualist.blogspot.com
                                                          The Homebrew                                                          Industrial                                                          Revolution:  A                                                          Low-Overhead                                                          Manifesto
                                                          http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
                                                          Organization                                                          Theory:  A                                                          Libertarian                                                          Perspective
                                                          http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
                                                          
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