<font color='black' size='2' face='arial'>E<font color="black" face="arial" size="2">xcellent point, Thom. However....<br>
<br>
Just imagine one of the WIRBank members happened to be a labour union, a PEO or some other kind of workers' association and that a sizeable proportion or perhaps all of WIR members employed members of this union/PEO/association. Doesn't this mean that labour would have the opportunity to issue the working capital credit that would form their own Swiss WIR denominated incomes? <br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Alan<br>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style="clear:both"></div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Thomas Greco <thg@mindspring.com><br>
To: Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xekoukou@gmail.com><br>
Cc: P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org><br>
Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2011 7:38 am<br>
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] self-regulating markets<br>
<br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_85f75da9-216f-4836-a3b1-e08390f4ca17">
Yes, everyone is both a producer and a consumer. Alvin Toffler
coined the term "prosumer."<br>
<br>
You can call the seller a lender and the buyer a borrower, if you
like. The seller has in a way "loaned' real value to the
buyer/borrower.<br>
The WIR required that lines of credit be secured by the pledge of
collateral. That provides surety of contract.<br>
<br>
You say, "When someone is given a loan, the own that gives the loan,
product(money) should have the responsibility to get the other a job
to give his debt back, if he doesnt find a job for him, then he
loses the credit he received.."<br>
<br>
Good luck selling that idea. As a borrower you want me to advance
real value to you and find you a job besides? <br>
What is YOUR responsibility? It's up to you to provide something
that community values and wants to buy.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com">thg@mindspring.com</a>
Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
Beyond Money: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://beyondmoney.net">http://beyondmoney.net</a>
Tom's News and Views: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com">http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com</a>
Archive Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://www.Reinventingmoney.com">http://www.Reinventingmoney.com</a>
Photo gallery: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg">http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg</a>
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization"
can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
</pre>
<br>
On 06/23/2011 2:26 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">Yes , I was just confused because of my english and
because it is a broad definition that is not mentioned a lot.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes the fact that we use our money is very important. One
important thing that could be used in Lets and is used in my
system is this: </div>
<div>When someone is given a loan, the own that gives the loan,
product(money) should have the responsibility to get the other a
job to give his debt back, if he doesnt find a job for him, then
he loses the credit he received..</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I recently read a bit about the WIR bank and how he was given
assets, real money to allow a balance to go negative. Then Kevin
very well said that negative balances can be backed by future
work.</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>I go even further and say that the borrower can only give
back the debt when others employ him or buy his products. The
borrower can only give the promise that when asked about one of
his product, he will give it to repay his debt. The market is
not controlled by him and he is not responsible. The lender
should be the one to lose his credit, since the borrower told
him to ask him of a product and he will provide.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is very important if we are to have flow of products in
the economy. Someone will buy a product if someone else buys his
product. The fact that in a transaction we differentiate the
buyer from the seller is fundamentally flawed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The buyer is also a seller. The employee is also the
employer.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So we could change the LETS system to give an incentive to
people to form circles.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let me now guess that the absence of such a system is the
reason why LETS communities prefer to be isolated, to keep their
credits locally.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">2011/6/23 Thomas Greco <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com">thg@mindspring.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> It's not all that
complicated. <br>
Yes, LETS is a form of mutual credit clearing.<br>
Credit clearing simply allows us to use "our" money (that
we create in the process of buying/selling) instead of
"their" money, which must be borrowed from a bank or
earned from someone else who borrowed it from a bank.<br>
<br>
If I do some work for you, we must agree upon a price.
Your account is debited and my account is credited for the
same amount. I can then use my credits to buy whatever I
want, at an agreed price, from someone else in the system.
You must eventually provide value to someone in order to
bring your balance back to zero. If you default, the
collective membership bears the burden of that instead of
me personally suffering the loss. <br>
The system must have sufficient revenues to cover such
losses as well as its operating expenses. <br>
I've explained all of this many times in my writings.
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com">thg@mindspring.com</a>
Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
Beyond Money: <a target="_blank" href="http://beyondmoney.net">http://beyondmoney.net</a>
Tom's News and Views: <a target="_blank" href="http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com">http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com</a>
Archive Website: <a target="_blank" href="http://www.Reinventingmoney.com">http://www.Reinventingmoney.com</a>
Photo gallery: <a target="_blank" href="http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg">http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg</a>
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization"
can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
</pre>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5"> On 06/22/2011 4:33 AM, Apostolis
Xekoukoulotakis wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">I tried to find information
about mutual credit clearing Unions. I couldnt find
much, so I guess that the name itself explains it. I
suppose that LETS is such a system.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let me make an example so as to see if we are
talking about the same method of exchange and to
clarify things.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We have John, Michael and all the others. John
is making furniture. In fact he has 5 different
kind of furniture that he is making. Michael is a
software engineer, he is paid by the hour and has
expertise in a number of programming languages and
frameworks. Both of them had done previous work
and they have a reputation that distinguishes them
from other of the same work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John decided that he wants to have a site
advertising his furniture so he goes to Michael
and tells him to make him a site. Michael and John
make a contract. Michael through the (system)site
knows at which proportionality has john currency,
ie furnitute been exchanged with other currencies,
products even if that exchange is indirect. The
system transforms to him through past transactions
or future contracts the currency of furniture into
the products he wants. This way Michael has an
exact understanding of the pleasure he recieves at
a specific time vs the work he will have to do
now.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John on the other hand understands the amount
of 'happiness he will receive' , ie the product.
There is no need for such a transformation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Both now have enough information to start
trading, decide the amount of work each one will
be obliged to do and at what time. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Lets just say now that Michael now has a
contract with John that allows him to ask for a
specific number of furniture of a specific design
till a specific date. That means that after this
date John has no obligation to make these
furniture. He has no debt and he is free to
abandon his workshop, retire.</div>
<div>Till that date Michael has to find work for
John so as to transform his currency into another
he likes. The system told him that most likely he
will transform it into the products he likes but
it is up to him. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let us say that someone likes the furniture of
john and wants to trade. At this time he can trade
directly with John or with Michael.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As you can see if John decides to abandon his
obligations the one to be harmed will be Michael.
This system doesnt have an abstract sense of
money. It tries to transform the currencies into
currencies that we want.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>How much value do 500 dollars mean to you? 500
dollars have different value per person depending
on the things they can buy with them. After a
period of time you will still have 500 dollars but
the things you can buy are different because the
prices change. Not only that, the person or node
that has the money plays an important role on the
value of money. Big corporations buy stock with a
lower price than smaller ones. Their value of
money is different. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>The topology of the graph plays an important
role in the transformation of money into goods. </b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So Dollars or any kind of such a currency, like
gold, doesnt contain within it the pleasure,
happiness we will receive with those money.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Now If someone were to give us how happy he
would be if he were in a specific situation(
number of products, amount of work), if everyone
did that, I could take all those people and
organize them in such a way, automatically
creating circles of flows, automatically finding
the prices and amount of products that are to be
traded. If I am given enough information, I could
even tell an engineer how his invention will
change the flow of products and prices.</div>
<div>
<div>I havent made the insertion of data user
friendly yet, but I think that It takes all
parameters into account and the price is
determined in such a way so as that the
individual maximizes his gain. You must also
understand that noone can cheat. If someone says
something different from what he wants , he will
get worse results.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Savings equal the amount of money on negative
balances. There are methods to stop people from
not paying and this should be enforced globally.
If someone has a flow of products every day, if
he doesnt want to pay old debts, he could be
dropped out of the system, not be able to buy
new things. Other people could also insure
someones debt.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As old debts are transformed into new debts
by making new contracts, savings change position
from one person to another as debt changes
hands. You can undestand that those who will
have debt will be the ones that are thought as
the most productive and usefull in the future.
Another method for savings allocation is
proportionality of your savings to the goods you
will want in the future. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What I am saying here IS experimental. What
is sure though is the fact that it requires a
lot of information to make it work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards...</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"> 2011/6/22 Thomas
Greco <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com">thg@mindspring.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Dear Apostolis,<br>
<br>
Below are the links to my websites,
and the title of my latest book.<br>
<br>
Clearing circles have been operating
successfully for many years. It is an
old idea.<br>
Now, the challenge is to optimize the
procedures and protocols and take it
to scale, then network local exchanges
together to provide an means of
payment that is locally controlled but
globally useful.<br>
<br>
A debit balance in a credit clearing
exchange can be looked at as a loan.
It is a draft upon a line of credit
that is extended by the collective
membership. In a clearing system some
accounts must be allowed to be
negative. The total of negative
balances (or positive balances) can be
looked at as the supply of internal
currency.<br>
<br>
Savings and investment, or <b>finance
</b>is a separate function from <b>exchange</b>.
<br>
Yes, they are related, but require
different mechanisms.<br>
<br>
Thomas<br>
<pre cols="72">Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com">thg@mindspring.com</a>
Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
Beyond Money: <a target="_blank" href="http://beyondmoney.net">http://beyondmoney.net</a>
Tom's News and Views: <a target="_blank" href="http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com">http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com</a>
Archive Website: <a target="_blank" href="http://www.Reinventingmoney.com">http://www.Reinventingmoney.com</a>
Photo gallery: <a target="_blank" href="http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg">http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg</a>
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization"
can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
</pre>
<div>
<div> <br>
On 06/21/2011 7:35 PM, Michel
Bauwens wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">Thomas has
written a few books and is in
touch with many local credit
commons initiatives ...<br>
<br>
he's in cc,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed,
Jun 22, 2011 at 3:38 AM,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:xekoukou@gmail.com">xekoukou@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">What you
say was exactly the idea
with which I started
working.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Where is more info
about it? Has Thomas
created such a clearing
house?
<div> Most importantly,
has he found an
algorithm to create
trading circles? has he
studied the macroeconomy
of such a system?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why do we need to see
the global network? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well, in order to be
able to make
investments. New
investments about a
specific product can
have indirect
consequences to the
whole network. We may
then have to compute
what percentage of the
investment will have to
be paid by each peer.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We need to know about
the global network in
order to decide to which
persons we can store our
savings and the ability
of those currencies to
be transfered into goods
that we will want in the
future. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is important to
think of each peer as a
producer, a seller, an
investor. Investors need
information.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
2011/6/21 Kevin
Carson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:free.market.anticapitalist@gmail.com">free.market.anticapitalist@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>El 21/06/11
04:23,
Apostolis
Xekoukoulotakis
dijo:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>> What I
am about to
say needs
testing and
more thinking
but let me
tell you<br>
> what I
have done so
far to create
an alternative
to the free
market.<br>
<br>
</div>
We're probably
using the term
"free market" in
a different
sense. The<br>
market can refer
simply to the
cash nexus, or
the arena of
commodity<br>
production for
monetized
exchange.<br>
<br>
But it can also
be used, by
market anarchist
like me, to
describe the<br>
entire spectrum
of voluntary
transactions and
relationships --<br>
including
cooperatives,
gift economies,
communal
property,
informal<br>
barter, mutual
aid, etc.<br>
<div><br>
>> I
have created a
new class of
currencies
that are very
similar to the<br>
>> very<br>
>> old
currencies.
What if each
person used
the creation
of his work as<br>
>>
currency.
When someone
owns 5 paul's
chairs for
example , It
is meant<br>
>> that<br>
>> Paul
will have to
give him those
5 chairs in
the future if
he asks for<br>
>> them.<br>
>> This
is then some
kind of loan.
Someone gives
something now
in exchange<br>
>> for<br>
>>
something in
the future. If
he doesnt need
the chairs, he
might have to<br>
>>
exchange
Paul's chairs
with something
else.<br>
<br>
</div>
That sounds a
lot like Tom
Greco's mutual
credit clearing
networks,<br>
which I'm a big
fan of. Every
member runs a
balance that
looks a lot<br>
like the balance
in a checking
account. When
you sell a good
or<br>
service to a
member your
balance goes up,
and when you
purchase same<br>
it goes down.
And the system
allows people to
run negative
balances,<br>
so long as the
negative balance
is limited to
some value
relative to<br>
their average
monthly sales
and the account
continues to be
active and<br>
turn over. So
"money" is
essentially
backed by the
goods being<br>
traded; rather
than being a
store of value
from past
production, it
is<br>
simply a unit of
account for
denominating
trade of
present-for-present<br>
or
present-for-future
production.
Nobody has to
have a store of
money<br>
from past
production in
order to trade,
so there's no
problem of<br>
economic
stagnation for
want of
liquidity
("there's not
enough money<br>
in
circulation").
People create
money by
trading.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
</font>
<div>
<div>Kevin
Carson<br>
Center for a
Stateless
Society <a target="_blank" href="http://c4ss.org">http://c4ss.org</a><br>
Mutualist
Blog: Free
Market
Anti-Capitalism<br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://mutualist.blogspot.com">http://mutualist.blogspot.com</a><br>
The Homebrew
Industrial
Revolution: A
Low-Overhead
Manifesto<br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com">http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com</a><br>
Organization
Theory: A
Libertarian
Perspective<br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html">http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html</a><br>
<br>
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-- <br>
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;">
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Sincerely yours, </pre>
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;"> Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre>
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-- <br>
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;">
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Sincerely yours, </pre>
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;"> Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre>
</span><br>
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<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;">
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;"></pre>
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Sincerely yours, </pre>
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;"> Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre>
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