[P2P-F] self-regulating markets

Thu Jun 23 14:08:01 CEST 2011

Alan,

anything in your files that you could publish in a non-lazy way with us?
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:56 PM, <adavans at aol.com> wrote:

> Thom as addressed those concerns as well, Apostolis.
>
> Thom is a big believer in building city-regional economies. A big Jane
> Jacobs man, as he should be!  Because of his interest in regional economics
> he has been able to systematically connect-the-dots between the Mondragon
> and Emilian-Romagnan experiences and that of the Swiss WIR prototype.
>
> He and I have both written about this stuff for over two decades now....I'm
> just too gosh darn lazy to publish. ;
>
> Another body of work you should find useful is that of Chris Cook and his
> Open Capital concept:http://www.opencapital.net.
>
> Regards
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xekoukou at gmail.com>
> To: thg at mindspring.com
> Cc: P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
> Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2011 2:26 am
> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] self-regulating markets
>
> Yes , I  was just confused because of my english and because it is a broad
> definition that is not mentioned a lot.
>
> Yes the fact that we use our money is very important. One important thing
> that could be used in Lets and is used in my system is this:
> When someone is given a loan, the own that gives the loan, product(money)
> should have the responsibility to get the other a job to give his debt back,
> if he doesnt find a job for him, then he loses the credit he received..
>
> I recently read a bit about the WIR bank and how he was given assets, real
> money to allow a balance to go negative. Then Kevin very well said that
> negative balances can be backed by future work.
>
> I go even further and say that the borrower can only give back the debt
> when others employ him or buy his products. The borrower can only give the
> promise that when asked about one of his product, he will give it to repay
> his debt. The market is not controlled by him and he is not responsible. The
> lender should be the one to lose his credit, since the borrower told him to
> ask him of a product and he will provide.
>
> This is very important if we are to have flow of products in the economy.
> Someone will buy a product if someone else buys his product. The fact that
> in a transaction we differentiate the buyer from the seller is fundamentally
> flawed.
>
> The buyer is also a seller. The employee is also the employer.
>
> So we could change the LETS system to give an incentive to people to form
>  circles.
>
> Let me now guess that the absence of such a system is the reason why LETS
> communities prefer to be isolated, to keep their credits locally.
>
>  2011/6/23 Thomas Greco <thg at mindspring.com>
>
>> **
>> It's not all that complicated.
>> Yes, LETS is a form of mutual credit clearing.
>> Credit clearing simply allows us to use "our" money (that we create in the
>> process of buying/selling) instead of "their" money, which must be borrowed
>> from a bank or earned from someone else who borrowed it from a bank.
>>
>> If I do some work for you, we must agree upon a price. Your account is
>> debited and my account is credited for the same amount. I can then use my
>> credits to buy whatever I want, at an agreed price, from someone else in the
>> system. You must eventually provide value to someone in order to bring your
>> balance back to zero. If you default, the collective membership bears the
>> burden of that instead of me personally suffering the loss.
>> The system must have sufficient revenues to cover such losses as well as
>> its operating expenses.
>> I've explained all of this many times in my writings.
>>
>>
>> Thomas H. Greco, Jr.thg at mindspring.com
>> Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
>> Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net
>> Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com
>> Archive Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com <http://www.reinventingmoney.com/>
>> Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
>> Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
>> My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization"
>> can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
>>
>>
>>  On 06/22/2011 4:33 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis wrote:
>>
>> I tried to find information about mutual credit clearing Unions. I couldnt
>> find much, so I guess that the name itself explains it. I suppose that LETS
>> is such a system.
>>
>> Let me make an example so as to see if we are talking about the same
>> method of exchange and to clarify things.
>>
>> We have John, Michael and all the others. John is making furniture. In
>> fact he has 5 different kind of furniture that he is making. Michael is a
>> software engineer, he is paid by the hour and has expertise in a number of
>> programming languages and frameworks. Both of them had done previous work
>> and they have a reputation that distinguishes them from other of the same
>> work.
>>
>> John decided that he wants to have a site advertising his furniture so he
>> goes to Michael and tells him to make him a site. Michael and John make a
>> contract. Michael through the (system)site knows  at which proportionality
>> has john currency, ie furnitute been exchanged with other currencies,
>> products even if that exchange is indirect. The system transforms to him
>> through past transactions or future contracts the currency of furniture into
>> the products he wants. This way Michael has an exact understanding of the
>> pleasure he recieves at a specific time vs the work he will have to do now.
>>
>> John on the other hand understands the amount of 'happiness he will
>> receive' , ie the product. There is no need for such a transformation.
>>
>> Both now have enough information to start trading, decide the amount of
>> work each one will be obliged to do and at what time.
>>
>> Lets just say now that Michael now has a contract with John that allows
>> him to ask for a specific number of furniture of a specific design till a
>> specific date. That means that after this date John has no obligation to
>> make these furniture. He has no debt and he is free to abandon his workshop,
>> retire.
>> Till that date Michael has to find work for John so as to transform his
>> currency into another he likes. The system told him that most likely he will
>> transform it into the products he likes but it is up to him.
>>
>> Let us say that someone likes the furniture of john and wants to trade. At
>> this time he can trade directly with John or with Michael.
>>
>> As you can see if John decides to abandon his obligations the one to be
>> harmed will be Michael. This system doesnt have an abstract sense of money.
>> It tries to transform the currencies into currencies that we want.
>>
>> How much value do 500 dollars mean to you?  500 dollars have different
>> value per person depending on the things they can buy with them. After a
>> period of time you will still have 500 dollars but the things you can buy
>> are different because the prices change. Not only that, the person or node
>> that has the money plays an important role on the value of money. Big
>> corporations buy stock with a lower price than smaller ones. Their value of
>> money is different.
>>
>> *The topology of the graph plays an important role in the transformation
>> of money into goods. *
>>
>> So Dollars or any kind of such a currency, like gold, doesnt contain
>> within it the pleasure, happiness we will receive with those money.
>>
>> Now If someone were to give us how happy he would be if he were in a
>> specific situation( number of products, amount of work), if everyone did
>> that, I could take all those people and organize them in such a way,
>> automatically creating circles of flows, automatically finding the prices
>> and amount of products that are to be traded. If I am given enough
>> information, I could even tell an engineer how his invention will change the
>> flow of products and prices.
>>  I havent made the insertion of data user friendly yet, but I think that
>> It takes all parameters into account and the price is determined in such a
>> way so as that the individual maximizes his gain. You must also understand
>> that noone can cheat. If someone says something different from what he wants
>> , he will get worse results.
>>
>> Savings equal the amount of money on negative balances. There are methods
>> to stop people from not paying and this should be enforced globally. If
>> someone has a flow of products every day, if he doesnt want to pay old
>> debts, he could be dropped out of the system, not be able to buy new things.
>> Other people could also insure someones debt.
>>
>> As old debts are transformed into new debts by making new contracts,
>> savings change position from one person to another as debt changes hands.
>> You can undestand that those who will have debt will be the ones that are
>> thought as the most productive and usefull in the future. Another method for
>> savings allocation is proportionality of your savings to the goods you will
>> want in the future.
>>
>> What I am saying here IS experimental. What is sure though is the fact
>> that it requires a lot of information to make it work.
>>
>> Best regards...
>>
>> 2011/6/22 Thomas Greco <thg at mindspring.com>
>>
>>> Dear Apostolis,
>>>
>>> Below are the links to my websites, and the title of my latest book.
>>>
>>> Clearing circles have been operating successfully for many years. It is
>>> an old idea.
>>> Now, the challenge is to optimize the procedures and protocols and take
>>> it to scale, then network local exchanges together to provide an means of
>>> payment that is locally controlled but globally useful.
>>>
>>> A debit balance in a credit clearing exchange can be looked at as a loan.
>>> It is a draft upon a line of credit that is extended by the collective
>>> membership. In a clearing system some accounts must be allowed to be
>>> negative. The total of negative balances (or positive balances) can be
>>> looked at as the supply of internal currency.
>>>
>>> Savings and investment, or *finance *is a separate function from *
>>> exchange*.
>>> Yes, they are related, but require different mechanisms.
>>>
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>> Thomas H. Greco, Jr.thg at mindspring.com
>>> Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
>>> Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net
>>> Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com
>>> Archive Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com <http://www.reinventingmoney.com/>
>>> Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
>>> Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
>>> My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization"
>>> can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 06/21/2011 7:35 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>
>>> Thomas has written a few books and is in touch with many local credit
>>> commons initiatives ...
>>>
>>> he's in cc,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 3:38 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
>>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What you say was exactly the idea with which I started working.
>>>>
>>>> Where is more info about it? Has Thomas created such a clearing house?
>>>> Most importantly, has he found an algorithm to create trading circles?
>>>> has he studied the macroeconomy of such a system?
>>>>
>>>> Why do we need to see the global network?
>>>>
>>>> Well, in order to be able to make investments. New investments about a
>>>> specific product can have indirect consequences to the whole network. We may
>>>> then have to compute what percentage of the investment will have to be paid
>>>> by each peer.
>>>>
>>>> We need to know about the global network in order to decide to which
>>>> persons we can store our savings and the ability of those currencies to be
>>>> transfered into goods that we will want in the future.
>>>>
>>>> It is important to think of each peer as a producer, a seller, an
>>>> investor. Investors need information.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   2011/6/21 Kevin Carson <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> El 21/06/11 04:23, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis dijo:
>>>>>
>>>>> > What I am about to say needs testing and more thinking but let me
>>>>> tell you
>>>>> > what I have done so far to create an alternative to the free market.
>>>>>
>>>>> We're probably using the term "free market" in a different sense.  The
>>>>> market can refer simply to the cash nexus, or the arena of commodity
>>>>> production for monetized exchange.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it can also be used, by market anarchist like me, to describe the
>>>>> entire spectrum of voluntary transactions and relationships --
>>>>> including cooperatives, gift economies, communal property, informal
>>>>> barter, mutual aid, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> >>  I have created a new class of currencies that are very similar to
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> very
>>>>> >>  old currencies. What if each person used the creation of his work
>>>>> as
>>>>> >>  currency. When someone owns 5 paul's chairs for example , It is
>>>>> meant
>>>>> >> that
>>>>> >>  Paul will have to give him those 5 chairs in the future if he asks
>>>>> for
>>>>> >> them.
>>>>> >>  This is then some kind of loan. Someone gives something now in
>>>>> exchange
>>>>> >> for
>>>>> >>  something in the future. If he doesnt need the chairs, he might
>>>>> have to
>>>>> >>  exchange Paul's chairs with something else.
>>>>>
>>>>> That sounds a lot like Tom Greco's mutual credit clearing networks,
>>>>> which I'm a big fan of.  Every member runs a balance that looks a lot
>>>>> like the balance in a checking account.  When you sell a good or
>>>>> service to a member your balance goes up, and when you purchase same
>>>>> it goes down.  And the system allows people to run negative balances,
>>>>> so long as the negative balance is limited to some value relative to
>>>>> their average monthly sales and the account continues to be active and
>>>>> turn over.  So "money" is essentially backed by the goods being
>>>>> traded; rather than being a store of value from past production, it is
>>>>> simply a unit of account for denominating trade of present-for-present
>>>>> or present-for-future production.  Nobody has to have a store of money
>>>>> from past production in order to trade, so there's no problem of
>>>>> economic stagnation for want of liquidity ("there's not enough money
>>>>> in circulation").  People create money by trading.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>  Kevin Carson
>>>>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>>>>> Mutualist Blog:  Free Market Anti-Capitalism
>>>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
>>>>> The Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
>>>>> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
>>>>> Organization Theory:  A Libertarian Perspective
>>>>>
>>>>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>
>>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>
>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Sincerely yours,
>>
>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> P2P Foundation - Mailing listhttp://www.p2pfoundation.nethttps://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/attachments/20110623/e6987bd2/attachment.htm 