[P2P-F] a new type of platform?

Wed Jul 27 17:16:59 CEST 2011

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Nicholas Roberts
<niccolo.roberts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> why does the OSE exclude actually existing open-source, public domain
> technologies i.e. crafts such as wood work, knitting and fabrics, gardening,
> fermenting, cooking, animal husbandry etc?
>
> these largely oral traditions defy easy modelling, try and do a Blender file
> for a mandella garden or a food forest ? there is a wealth of traditional
> knowledge that is being lost and has substantially more value than a top
> down techno-utopian benevolent dictatorship
>

::cough:: ::cough:: http://www.appropedia.org/Welcome_to_Appropedia
::cough:: ::cough::

> in nearly all fields of human endeavour now, there is a festish for
> computerization, automation, virtualization and modelling
>

Repitition Leads to Boredom. Boredom leads to making mistakes.
Mistakes make you yearn for the time when you were merely bored....

> in finance, science, economics, architecture there is a market advantage to
> being able to present a gee-whiz computer model, an interactive graphic,
> something that looks good on a screen or in CAD
>

There is also an advantage to people around the world being able share
and collaborate around digital representations of objects

> we've come a very long way from the back-to-the-land movement of the 60s and
> 70s - which was inspired by and inspired works like Christopher Alexanders A
> Pattern Language - which was based on living patterns from nature, from
> existing human settlements
>
> the engineering approach to life is reaching a fundamental limitation, the
> earth is overloaded by human machine like designs and their manifestations
> i.e a stream becomes a culverted drain, a lake becomes a hydro-electric
> power generating dam, a food forest becomes a plantation, and now a village
> becomes a lego set
>

I agree that everything does not need engineering.

> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> hi Nicholas, can you elaborate on that critique? have you written anything
>> else on it?
>>
>> there are some quite heavy accusations in here ... totalitarianism,
>> fetish, which would need some backup <g>
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts
>> <niccolo.roberts at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and
>>> technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous
>>> distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate
>>> technology
>>>
>>> its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication
>>> and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it
>>> doesnt exist
>>>
>>> real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate
>>> yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of
>>> donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
>>>
>>> the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind
>>> <devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ben.  The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more
>>>> strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design,
>>>> branding, apparel, music, parties etc.  We also need complete narratives.
>>>> One reason I was so drawn to OSE is that the project had such a complete
>>>> story that fits within a comfortable narratives: high-tech homestead, DY
>>>> farming, etc.  A friend told me last night how she thought the concept of
>>>> 'recycling' has prepared the public to understand open source and that
>>>> people wouldn't be able to comprehend the message five years ago.  So yes,
>>>> I'm interested in marketing the free/libre/opensource movement to the
>>>> mainstream public and would love to connect about this issue.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <solaureum at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sam,
>>>>>
>>>>> I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land
>>>>> Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was
>>>>> really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something
>>>>> very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production
>>>>> paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop
>>>>> and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and
>>>>> parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to
>>>>> integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe
>>>>> sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and
>>>>> participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share
>>>>> compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and
>>>>> tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person,
>>>>> and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a
>>>>> more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation
>>>>> to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting
>>>>> home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately
>>>>> linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still
>>>>> seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a
>>>>> competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're
>>>>> all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage
>>>>> points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained
>>>>> toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous
>>>>> demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms
>>>>> that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the
>>>>> more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their
>>>>> attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's
>>>>> say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not
>>>>> that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of
>>>>> agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt
>>>>> the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people
>>>>> on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product
>>>>> which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where
>>>>> they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and
>>>>> fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural
>>>>> landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
>>>>>
>>>>> The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all
>>>>> that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with
>>>>> familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we
>>>>> identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real
>>>>> results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of
>>>>> goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone
>>>>> about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a
>>>>> way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background
>>>>> could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do
>>>>> believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems
>>>>> worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation
>>>>> here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd
>>>>> really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics
>>>>> with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links
>>>>> to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I
>>>>> imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will
>>>>> update soon!
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>>>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell
>>>>>> > <solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the
>>>>>> >> side with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of
>>>>>> >> Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let
>>>>>> >> me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more
>>>>>> >> complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in
>>>>>> >> poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly.
>>>>>> >> Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to
>>>>>> >> share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm
>>>>>> >> thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable
>>>>>> >> circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science,
>>>>>> >> spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my
>>>>>> >> twitte stream at v17us though.
>>>>>> >> Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with
>>>>>> >> anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture
>>>>>> approaches, the first best group to connect with is
>>>>>> http://www.landinstitute.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are interested in building community based agricultural
>>>>>> enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing
>>>>>> ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens
>>>>>> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> hi Benjamin,
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> this promises to be very interesting,
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of
>>>>>> >>> marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale
>>>>>> >>> through open design cooperation ...
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been
>>>>>> >>> active in the field,
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Michel
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell
>>>>>> >>> <solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have
>>>>>> >>>> allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and
>>>>>> >>>> implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting
>>>>>> >>>> opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy
>>>>>> >>>> surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into
>>>>>> >>>> many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real
>>>>>> >>>> foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow,
>>>>>> >>>> I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter
>>>>>> >>>> paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication,
>>>>>> >>>> here they are:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Sufficiency Alert
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable
>>>>>> >>>> primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger
>>>>>> >>>> play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a
>>>>>> >>>> clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant
>>>>>> >>>> control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets
>>>>>> >>>> now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand
>>>>>> >>>> for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic,
>>>>>> >>>> conscientious preference:  without viable alternatives in place, industrial
>>>>>> >>>> agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge
>>>>>> >>>> of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful
>>>>>> >>>> (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically
>>>>>> >>>> re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production
>>>>>> >>>> is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums,
>>>>>> >>>> perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are
>>>>>> >>>> fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the
>>>>>> >>>> grand chaordic system that is human culture.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to
>>>>>> >>>> sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within
>>>>>> >>>> current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of
>>>>>> >>>> higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an
>>>>>> >>>> excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving)
>>>>>> >>>> over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has
>>>>>> >>>> noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic
>>>>>> >>>> activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious
>>>>>> >>>> containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale
>>>>>> >>>> development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are
>>>>>> >>>> scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property,
>>>>>> >>>> they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they
>>>>>> >>>> are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median
>>>>>> >>>> standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules
>>>>>> >>>> are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively
>>>>>> >>>> expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial
>>>>>> >>>> society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible
>>>>>> >>>> surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal
>>>>>> >>>> value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified
>>>>>> >>>> ROI!
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>>>> >>>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> hi Ben,
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable,
>>>>>> >>>>> which your piece is,
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to
>>>>>> >>>>> elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph,
>>>>>> >>>>> you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to
>>>>>> >>>>> know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to
>>>>>> >>>>> the table that wasn't there before?
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well,
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type:
>>>>>> >>>>> revaluolation!
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell
>>>>>> >>>>> <solaureum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it
>>>>>> >>>>>> is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let
>>>>>> >>>>>> me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions
>>>>>> >>>>>> to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production
>>>>>> >>>>>> infrastructures...and underlying values.
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you
>>>>>> >>>>>>> want to take a look:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz15fU/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=COfC6ZMG
>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but
>>>>>> >>>>>>> if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and
>>>>>> >>>>>>> leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem!
>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some
>>>>>> >>>>>>> wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps..
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> --
>>>>>> >>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>> >>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>> >>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>> >>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> --
>>>>>> >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>> >>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>> >>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>> >>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>> >>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > --
>>>>>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>>> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>> > http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>>> Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC
>>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
>>>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Devin Balkind
>>>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>>>> @devinbalkind
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>
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-- 
--
Sam Rose
Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://hollymeadcapital.com
http://p2pfoundation.net
http://futureforwardinstitute.com
http://socialmediaclassroom.com

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan