[P2P-F] [Demonetize] Dunbars Number was: Economics of Happiness

Fri Dec 23 12:59:25 CET 2011

3 different dunbar sizes at http://p2pfoundation.net/Dunbar_Number

more on group thresholds, see http://p2pfoundation.net/Group_Tresholds

   -
   - Personal Circle <http://p2pfoundation.net/Personal_Circle>
   Christopher Allen: The material below is from Christopher Allen.
   5 KB (877 words) - 04:06, 29 November 2009
   - Working Group <http://p2pfoundation.net/Working_Group>
   Christopher Allen:
   2 KB (310 words) - 04:13, 29 November 2009
   - Judas Number <http://p2pfoundation.net/Judas_Number>
   Christopher Allen:
   3 KB (560 words) - 04:14, 29 November 2009
   - Non-Exclusive Dunbar
Number<http://p2pfoundation.net/Non-Exclusive_Dunbar_Number>
   Christopher Allen:
   1 KB (192 words) - 04:16, 29 November 2009
   - Dunbar Valley <http://p2pfoundation.net/Dunbar_Valley>
   Christopher Allen:
   2 KB (251 words) - 04:17, 29 November 2009
   - Exclusive Dunbar Number<http://p2pfoundation.net/Exclusive_Dunbar_Number>
   Christopher Allen:
   2 KB (387 words) - 04:19, 29 November 2009

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 11:35 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:

> When noticing this post ( see below for thread )
> I searched a bit more, as I remembered a relation , for "Phyles",
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Phyles
> which limited a Phyle to Dunbar's number.
>
>
> http://p2pfoundation.net/backups/p2p_research-archives/2010-November/011238.html
>
> excerpt :
>
> *"Las Indias fully adopts and practices the*
>
> *open ethos, uses decision-making through deliberation, and is committed to
> splitting into autonomous units, whenever the Dunbar limit is reached."*
>
>
> http://p2pfoundation.net/backups/p2p_research-archives/2010-November/011224.html
>
> *Michel Bauwens wrote:*
>
> *
> For those who want to follow the debates with lasindias, here are the 3
> books that are the basis of their ideas:http://deugarte.com/gomi/phyles.pdfhttp://deugarte.com/gomi/Nations.pdfhttp://deugarte.com/gomi/the-power-of-networks.pdf
> respectively a history of the corporate, governance, and civil forms,
> each one culminating in the network age*
>
>
> As I did so, I also found out articles as this one
> http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2004/03/the_dunbar_numb.html
>
> more :
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Dunbar_Number
>
>
> Forwarded conversation
> Subject: Re: [Demonetize] Dunbars Number was: Economics of Happiness
> ------------------------
>
> From: *Nikola Winter* <nikola.winter at zeitgeist-movement.at>
> Date: Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 8:57 PM
> To: discuss at lists.demonetize.it
>
>
> Hi,
>
> in my research on Dunbars Number i faound an article by Dennis R. Fox,
> "Psychology, Ideology, Utopia, and the Commons" that i want to share with
> you.
>
> Let my cite just one paragraph:
>
> "Edney (1980, 1981a) also argued that long-term solutions will require,
> among a number of other approaches, breaking down the commons into smaller
> segments. He reviewed experimental data showing that cooperative behavior
> is indeed more common in smaller groups. After estimating that "the upper
> limit for a simple, self-contained, sustaining, well-functioning commons
> may be as low as 150 people" (1981a, p. 27), he listed the following
> "functional benefits" of reducing group size:
> * Improved communication helps sustain necessary feedback;
> * greater visibility of member distress during scarcity enhances the
> probability of remedial action;
> * individual responsibilities are harder to avoid;
> * alienation is reduced;
> * and the role of money is reduced.
>
> Also, with many small commons instead of one large one, shortages in one
> cannot endanger the whole, and free riders have limited impact. "The
> improved focus on the group itself, the greater ease of monitoring
> exploitative power, and the opportunities for trust to develop among
> individuals with face-to-face contact are also enhanced" (1981a, p. 28). "
>
> http://www.dennisfox.net/**papers/commons.html<http://www.dennisfox.net/papers/commons.html>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Nikola
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.demonetize.it
> http://lists.demonetize.it/**listinfo/discuss<http://lists.demonetize.it/listinfo/discuss>
>
> ----------
> From: *Isen hand* <isenhand at yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 9:05 PM
> To: Demonetize it! <discuss at lists.demonetize.it>
>
>
> Sometimes  I think it's annoying when you find some1 else having the same
> idea, especially years before me :D
>
> Small groups like that, working together in a  network forms the bases of
> what we in EOS have worked on for the last few years. If you then add
> groups forming other groups you end up with a holonic structure.
>
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/76039420/The-Design
>
> Funny how the same ideas go around and around!
>
> ---
>
> Dr. Andrew Wallace BEng(hons) PhD EurIng
> Director of EOS
> http://www.eoslife.eu/
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Nikola Winter <nikola.winter at zeitgeist-movement.at>
> *To:* discuss at lists.demonetize.it
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 20 December 2011, 20:57
> *Subject:* Re: [Demonetize] Dunbars Number was: Economics of Happiness
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.demonetize.it
> http://lists.demonetize.it/listinfo/discuss
>
>
> ----------
> From: *fran k* <frank_bowman at yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:05 PM
> To: discuss at lists.demonetize.it
>
>
>
>
> Hi, it is really interesting to read this research you obtained, Nikola
> and Raffael. it feels very good.
>
> Now here I put in more of my pennyworth, or as my friend put it 'how odd
> it seems to put more than 20 and more years of learning in a few words that
> may be passed over, as it seems somehow not doing that learning justice' I
> know how that feels too.
> ..............................................
>
> Where my thoughts lie on the Dunbar number, is at present our group size
> is a poor 2 plus 2.4 children. Most people think that the Dunbar number is
> small, but that is because they compare it to the mass of artificial
> alienated size we live in.
> but, There are always two groups we live in, close family and those
> outside. So years ago we lived in tribal family groups of max 150, with the
> rest of the world outside, and today also we live in family but it is tiny,
> with still the rest of the world outside. one can see from that then that
> we live in a poor situation nowadays, compared to before.
>
> There are a few things also that relate to this; one is we tend to see the
> old way we lived as primitive. the other is that previously our natural
> group size is around 150 max and then as tribal size grows it then
> naturally splits off into the formation of new tribes.  thus we had a
> prehistory world or a non invaded world of these villages, so we may ask
> what was it that caused one of these tribes to unnaturally exceed its
> numbers to eventually expand and conquer the world? the pressure that is
> continually on us ever present through history to stay artificially larger.
> I do not think it is agriculture alone, I think it is tax, number of debt
> owing in exchange, and power. Protection money. forced exchange. usury.
>
> Indeed 'pay or die'.    Exchange. or die.
>
> Here I think we can divide commodity into two.
>
> Those things that if we don't have we die. our needs. and those things
> that if we can't afford to pay for we don't die.
>
> The pressure on us of exchange is with needs.  It's the 'Why should we
> have to pay to live on our earth?'
>
> So, if we take my contention that in order to have abundance and all fed,
> it is a of first order and first priority that we create a gift economy for
> basic needs, primary resources.
>
> as of course We are stupid not to, because paying a price for those things
> by competitive exchange, or exchange alone, because the  competition of the
> exchange process  is inherent. is a stupidity of provision of shortage!
>
> Paying a price for those things is actually the hold that  keeps the whole
> money system together.
>
> Without that we will collapse back to gift economy of village.
>
> Maybe we could collapse back to not only the gift economy but with a
> cooperation between those villages of useful technology.
>
>  I still  consider highest technologies being our own lovely legs, our own
> lovely voices, our own group togetherness. and the lower basic technologies.
> With the more complex technology we esteem, now,  as being less, but very
>  interesting. I consider we should esteem the basics and ourselves the
> highest.
>
> (apart from useful medicine and its helpful technology. I think we should
> esteem that , but living more healthily we would need less as they do in
> those present communities like okinawa and asabygan and other low impact
> living peoples who live happy very long lives.
>
> it is priorities, that is important.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ----------
> From: *fran k* <frank_bowman at yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:13 PM
> To: discuss at lists.demonetize.it
>
>
>
>
> I forgot to mention that I loved your comment on this Kellia . putting
> things clearly into perspective.  I have it saved.
> Frank
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ----------
> From: *T at aworldbeyondcapitalism.org* <openawbc at gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 4:33 PM
> To: Demonetize it! <discuss at lists.demonetize.it>
>
>
> Dear Nikola, Isen, Frank and friends,
>
> This is an interesting conversation about groups of people 150 or less.  I
> have studied communities for a very long time and lived in many all over
> the USA.  I have come to find that most Intentional Communities that have
> between 11 and 150 people have a turn-over rate of 50-75% of the residents
> typically staying 6 months or less.  In the USA, over 50% of the communes
> and Intentional Communities of the 1960's have disappeared.  The reasons
> for this have been extensively covered in vatrous books (I once read a book
> that solely and individually chronicled why hundreds of communities closed
> down) and in a recommended quarterly publication called Communities
> magazine.
>
> Personally, the top 3 reasons I think the groups of 150 or smaller have a
> high turn over rate are as follows:
>
> #1.  Lack of love as a shared priority.  Too complex a topic to even touch
> on.  *happy laughter*.
> #2.  The reason I have heard verbalized most often is money issues and
> lack of long term equity.
> #3.  Drama and lack of third part arbitration, mediators and non-violent
> communication
>
> Here is a wikipedia excerpt:
>
> *Nonviolent Communication (NVC)* (also called *Compassionate Communication
> * or *Collaborative Communication*[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication#cite_note-0>
> [2]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication#cite_note-Branscomb-1>)
> is a communication process.  NVC often functions as a conflict resolution<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_resolution>process. It focuses on three aspects of communication:
> *self-empathy* (defined as a deep and compassionate awareness of one's
> own inner experience), *empathy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy>*(defined as listening to another with deep compassion), and
> *honest self-expression* (defined as expressing oneself authentically in
> a way that is likely to inspire compassion in others).
> NVC is based on the idea that all human beings have the capacity for
> compassion and only resort to violence or behavior that harms others when
> they don't recognize more effective strategies for meeting needs.
>
> Happy Holidays everyone,
>
> Love for the people,
> -T
> --
> "...remember that if the struggle were to resort to violence, it will lose
> vision, beauty and imagination. Most dangerous of all, it will marginalize
> and eventually victimize women. And a political struggle that does not have
> women at the heart of it, above it, below it and within it is no struggle
> at all."
> ~Arundhati Roy, The 2004 Sydney Peace Prize lecture.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss at lists.demonetize.it
> http://lists.demonetize.it/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>
>

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