[P2P-F] What is a fair economic system to you?

Sat Dec 17 13:16:17 CET 2011

Michel , the reason I make those assumptions is so as to simplify things.
Ofcourse, resourses are not scarse and we have to find a way to distribute
them equally. This adds the question of how to distribute them.
 i wanted to not overcomlicate things for now to make a point.

For the same reason, i said that people dont cheat and that we have
unlimited time to bargain. (the unlimited time is not necessary here but
could happen in a computer aided bargain,
http://viff.dk/doc/applications.html#nordic-sugar )

So what I am doing is creating an abstraction.

After I create that abstraction, I say that the rules are the problem and
not that we dont abide by the rules(cheating),

For the last question, i would love to hear your opinion, Having the person
as a unit is the basis of my theory and an assumption that I would like
your opinion about,

Just remember that this economic system is supposed to be a fair one, not
an ideal one, I believe that after creating a fair system, we could create
another one on top of it based on solidarity and the commons,

*So in conclusion, I attack the belief that a free market based on the
first rule which i think individual anarchists call "free market" is the
solution,*

Exploitation will emerge like it emerged a few thousand years ago,

2011/12/17 Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>

> hi Apostolis,
>
> why start from an erroneous assumption in the first place; since natural
> resources are by no means infinite. I strongly recommend reading Roberto
> Verzola on the abundance-scarcity polarity,
>
> see
> http://p2pfoundation.net/?title=Special%3ASearch&search=%22Roberto+Verzola%22&fulltext=Search
>
> your further assumptions are equally questionable; we have no infinite
> time to bargain and people do cheat.
>
> How to built a fair system on such assumptions; sounds like neoclassical
> economics and neoliberalism ..;
>
> why also start the axioms with one person as basic unit?
>
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> As some of you may know i am trying to create/simulate a fair economic
>> system. I would like the opinion of the members of this list as to what
>> is in their opinion a fair economic system. I write down a few thoughts of
>> mine.
>>
>> To simplify things, lets assume that there are infinite natural resources
>> and that all can discover each other and they have infinite time to
>> bargain. Let us also assume that no one can cheat, everyone plays by the
>> rules.
>>
>> The first most reasonable rule is this one:
>>
>>
>>    1. *The owner of a thing is the person that decides the way that this
>>    thing will be used or decides the transfer of ownership to another person.
>>    (trading)*
>>
>>  Each person is the owner of the products of his work.
>>
>> I think that the first rule could describe the idealization of our
>> current economic model.
>>
>> Since all natural resources are infinite, the only reason for someone to
>> transfer the ownership of his work would be if ,in that way, he could
>> obtain something he likes and is a product of someone else s work. That
>> product could have been created in the past or will be created in the future
>>
>> The creation of promises adds a new characteristic to our system. It
>> gives it memory. Things that happened in the past affect the future. They
>> specifically affect the ownership of the wealth that is created in the
>> future.
>>
>> I will now write my second rule under which an economic system is fair
>> and show that for the second rule to work the first rule needs to be
>> changed slightly.
>>
>>      2. * At every single moment, each person should have equal
>> opportunity to create or obtain wealth(products) for himself.*
>>
>> The most important part of the rule is that it should happen always.
>>
>> In other words , we want the memory of our system to not affect the
>> equality in opportunity to create or obtain wealth for ourselves.
>>
>>
>>  *Now I will explain in my opinion why the first rule gives our system
>> memories that affect the second rule.*
>>
>> I will now create a very specific example that will demonstrate those bad
>> memories.
>>
>> Two beings A and B exist in Mars. They have their own will, don’t like to
>> work, in fact they can only work 8 hours a day, and abide by the first rule.
>>
>> A likes apples and oranges and can make apples and everything else except
>> oranges.
>>
>> B likes apples and makes oranges.
>>
>> A can make 3 apples a day and the best possible outcome would be to have
>> 1 apple and 1 orange a day.
>>
>> B makes 1 orange a day and wants exactly 1 apple a day.
>>
>> If A doesn’t have his orange he is 2 times worse than B when he doesn’t
>> have his apple.
>>
>> In any case we can create an example of 2 persons in which A gives 2
>> apples to B to receive an orange based solely on the first rule.
>>
>> The fact that A is forced to give 2 apples is the way trading works.* **Please
>> notice that the difference in the state of their condition is affected only
>> by 2 factors, their needs to a product and their abilities to create
>> products.*
>>
>> Also note that wealth will be accumulated in the hands of B but till now,
>> past created wealth doesn’t not affect how new wealth is distributed. Our
>> second rule still works.
>>
>>
>>  Now lets go 2000 years in the future. (these apples cannot rot, lol)
>>
>> A new invention is found and is known to both.
>>
>> B decides to give oranges to A only if A creates a tool based on this
>> invention.
>>
>> A has no other choice than to accept.
>>
>> Now B is the owner of this tool that could allow A to make apples at one
>> third of the work.
>>
>> Now A would certainly like to work 2/3 of the previous time to create 6
>> apples in which he would give 5 to B if B gave him the tool and one orange
>> every day. Now B is given 5 apples instead of 2.
>>
>>
>>  *What is important is not that he is given more apples than before.
>> That could have happened anyways. The important thing is that the memory of
>> the system has played an important role in the bargain.*
>>
>> *In other words, now there is a 3rd factor, the memory of the system.*
>>
>> This contradicts our 2nd rule since there is a factor that is not
>> dependent on the current qualities of the persons.
>>
>> In conclusion , in an ideal world where the 1 rule applies, it is
>> possible for the second rule to not work.
>>
>>
>>  It is also important to note that we started in a state where the both
>> rules worked and went into another where the 2nd didn’t work.
>>
>> This is important to the p2p movement because a lot of projects try to
>> decentralize, distribute the means of production, ie they are trying to go
>> to a state where both rules work and they dont think whether our way of
>> tracking ownership and promises could revert their efforts.
>>
>> *Let us also note that the second rule doesn’t prohibit a world in which
>> someone is richer than another. In fact we can create an economic system in
>> which the huge inequalities in accumulated wealth wouldn’t not affect the 2
>> nd rule.*
>>
>>
>>  *What kind of 'laws' should we put in order to have both rules obeyed
>> and what is your ideal economic system?*
>>
>>
>>  --
>>
>> Sincerely yours,
>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>
>>
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-- 

Sincerely yours,

     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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