[P2P-F] What is a fair economic system to you?

Sat Dec 17 11:48:07 CET 2011

hi Apostolis,

why start from an erroneous assumption in the first place; since natural
resources are by no means infinite. I strongly recommend reading Roberto
Verzola on the abundance-scarcity polarity,

see
http://p2pfoundation.net/?title=Special%3ASearch&search=%22Roberto+Verzola%22&fulltext=Search

your further assumptions are equally questionable; we have no infinite time
to bargain and people do cheat.

How to built a fair system on such assumptions; sounds like neoclassical
economics and neoliberalism ..;

why also start the axioms with one person as basic unit?

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:

> As some of you may know i am trying to create/simulate a fair economic
> system. I would like the opinion of the members of this list as to what
> is in their opinion a fair economic system. I write down a few thoughts of
> mine.
>
> To simplify things, lets assume that there are infinite natural resources
> and that all can discover each other and they have infinite time to
> bargain. Let us also assume that no one can cheat, everyone plays by the
> rules.
>
> The first most reasonable rule is this one:
>
>
>    1. *The owner of a thing is the person that decides the way that this
>    thing will be used or decides the transfer of ownership to another person.
>    (trading)*
>
>  Each person is the owner of the products of his work.
>
> I think that the first rule could describe the idealization of our current
> economic model.
>
> Since all natural resources are infinite, the only reason for someone to
> transfer the ownership of his work would be if ,in that way, he could
> obtain something he likes and is a product of someone else s work. That
> product could have been created in the past or will be created in the future
>
> The creation of promises adds a new characteristic to our system. It gives
> it memory. Things that happened in the past affect the future. They
> specifically affect the ownership of the wealth that is created in the
> future.
>
> I will now write my second rule under which an economic system is fair and
> show that for the second rule to work the first rule needs to be changed
> slightly.
>
>      2. * At every single moment, each person should have equal
> opportunity to create or obtain wealth(products) for himself.*
>
> The most important part of the rule is that it should happen always.
>
> In other words , we want the memory of our system to not affect the
> equality in opportunity to create or obtain wealth for ourselves.
>
>
>  *Now I will explain in my opinion why the first rule gives our system
> memories that affect the second rule.*
>
> I will now create a very specific example that will demonstrate those bad
> memories.
>
> Two beings A and B exist in Mars. They have their own will, don’t like to
> work, in fact they can only work 8 hours a day, and abide by the first rule.
>
> A likes apples and oranges and can make apples and everything else except
> oranges.
>
> B likes apples and makes oranges.
>
> A can make 3 apples a day and the best possible outcome would be to have 1
> apple and 1 orange a day.
>
> B makes 1 orange a day and wants exactly 1 apple a day.
>
> If A doesn’t have his orange he is 2 times worse than B when he doesn’t
> have his apple.
>
> In any case we can create an example of 2 persons in which A gives 2
> apples to B to receive an orange based solely on the first rule.
>
> The fact that A is forced to give 2 apples is the way trading works.* **Please
> notice that the difference in the state of their condition is affected only
> by 2 factors, their needs to a product and their abilities to create
> products.*
>
> Also note that wealth will be accumulated in the hands of B but till now,
> past created wealth doesn’t not affect how new wealth is distributed. Our
> second rule still works.
>
>
>  Now lets go 2000 years in the future. (these apples cannot rot, lol)
>
> A new invention is found and is known to both.
>
> B decides to give oranges to A only if A creates a tool based on this
> invention.
>
> A has no other choice than to accept.
>
> Now B is the owner of this tool that could allow A to make apples at one
> third of the work.
>
> Now A would certainly like to work 2/3 of the previous time to create 6
> apples in which he would give 5 to B if B gave him the tool and one orange
> every day. Now B is given 5 apples instead of 2.
>
>
>  *What is important is not that he is given more apples than before. That
> could have happened anyways. The important thing is that the memory of the
> system has played an important role in the bargain.*
>
> *In other words, now there is a 3rd factor, the memory of the system.*
>
> This contradicts our 2nd rule since there is a factor that is not
> dependent on the current qualities of the persons.
>
> In conclusion , in an ideal world where the 1 rule applies, it is possible
> for the second rule to not work.
>
>
>  It is also important to note that we started in a state where the both
> rules worked and went into another where the 2nd didn’t work.
>
> This is important to the p2p movement because a lot of projects try to
> decentralize, distribute the means of production, ie they are trying to go
> to a state where both rules work and they dont think whether our way of
> tracking ownership and promises could revert their efforts.
>
> *Let us also note that the second rule doesn’t prohibit a world in which
> someone is richer than another. In fact we can create an economic system in
> which the huge inequalities in accumulated wealth wouldn’t not affect the 2
> nd rule.*
>
>
>  *What kind of 'laws' should we put in order to have both rules obeyed
> and what is your ideal economic system?*
>
>
>  --
>
> Sincerely yours,
>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>
>
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>

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