[P2P-F] michigan developments

• Previous message: [P2P-F] michigan developments
• Next message: [P2P-F] details on bolivia's nature law
• Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Sam,
>
> I'm personally not suggesting that p2p people should create a political
> party, BUT, I do think that we should have bridges to the institutional
> world, and that includes a network of sympathetic politicians,
>

Yeah, I have been saying all along that I would love to collaborate
with existing parties that support p2p/commons principles.

> in Europe, for example around EU legislation, there is now a network of
> digital rights organisations (opennet coalition) that can quickly not only
> mobilize sympathizers, but also a network of national and european MEP's
> that can be counted on to support p2p rights legislation ... generally
> speaking, from experience, the Pirate Party (ies), the Greens and sections
> of the left parties are generally sympathetic, while parties of the right
> side with copyright maximalism ...; same for commons-related topics
>
> I would suggest that this also needs to happen in the U.S., and I'm
> hypothising that organisations like EFF are doing this?
>

Yes indeed. EFF, Creative Commons, the green party where it is active
and was not corrupted. Yes, I agree.

> so it's not about creating a p2p political party, but of meshworking
> political and non-political people around shared concerns wherever they can
> be active
>


Yes indeed. Tried to describe that here too
http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto#Government

>
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:54 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > my hunch is that such a movement also needs a cohesive leadership group
>> > where there is already a priori trust, and that perhaps they launched
>> > 'too
>> > fast' before there was any such coherence,
>> >
>> > michel
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I also think there is something to be said for the reality that a
>> "party" is really a bottleneck, and a target for co-optation. Given
>> people's lack of general political access here in Michigan, we're
>> asking them to take a real gamble by throwing their lot in with a
>> "party" that may have leadership with a different agenda than theirs.
>> Parties are also a really convenient way to categorize, pidgeon hole,
>> and "steer" people. You can invest huge amounts of time building a
>> political party, and then watch some really undesirable people take it
>> over. It's going to be extremely hard to convince me to put my own
>> energy into a party after the experiences I've already been through
>> participating in them in the past. Instead, I am really focused on
>> providing plausible alternatives to food, energy, education,
>> technology and culture systems in our cities and communities, where
>> people can co-govern the resources, an collaborate with others in the
>> region who are doing the same.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Michel Bauwens
>> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > certainly in the U.S. the whole system seems structurally 'stacked'
>> >> > against
>> >> > new political forces emerging outside of the 2 party system ...
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I think that both of the parties need to be confronted with
>> >> organized groups of people who are speaking for themselves, that are
>> >> no co-opted and under either group's control.
>> >>
>> >> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Michel Bauwens
>> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Dear Sam,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > issues of power seem part of every social movement, but perhaps
>> >> >> > they
>> >> >> > are
>> >> >> > heigthened in party-political structures, as you seem to suggest,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I hope your own experiment will show a way forward that marries
>> >> >> > political
>> >> >> > efficicay and a way to avoid the  issues you are highlighting,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > however, I don't think I agree that these dynamics are what caused
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > fall
>> >> >> > of the greens in michigan, since they appear in every political
>> >> >> > party,
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > many of them are successfull even with such dynamics,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > so my hunch is the problem was another one,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Michel
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think the dynamics, coupled with the lack of literacies of
>> >> >> effective
>> >> >> and trust based participation seemed to be the biggest problem. In
>> >> >> other areas of the world and other cultures, the dynamics may
>> >> >> emerge,
>> >> >> but people are able to sort through them and move on. Here it seems
>> >> >> with new political parties that there is a pathology that attracts a
>> >> >> bad element, who co-opt and hijack. Many of the new party efforts
>> >> >> seem
>> >> >> to never recover from this. It may just be a part of our culture
>> >> >> here.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Samuel Rose
>> >> >> > <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens
>> >> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > thank you Sam,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > map
>> >> >> >> > out
>> >> >> >> > commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach,  based on 8
>> >> >> >> > principles
>> >> >> >> > which when combined, given an indication of how a principled
>> >> >> >> > policy
>> >> >> >> > would
>> >> >> >> > look like, see the falkvinge blog for that
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very
>> >> >> >> strongly
>> >> >> >> here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> US
>> >> >> >> with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive,
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people
>> >> >> >> who
>> >> >> >> saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or
>> >> >> >> personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others.
>> >> >> >> The
>> >> >> >> Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I
>> >> >> >> think
>> >> >> >> that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth
>> >> >> >> *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's
>> >> >> >> time
>> >> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and
>> >> >> >> wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their
>> >> >> >> insistence
>> >> >> >> that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the
>> >> >> >> people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the
>> >> >> >> clock
>> >> >> >> platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even
>> >> >> >> harass
>> >> >> >> people.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a
>> >> >> >> non-party
>> >> >> >> route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with
>> >> >> >> existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the
>> >> >> >> party
>> >> >> >> and platform above people and their actual problems tends to
>> >> >> >> consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a
>> >> >> >> key
>> >> >> >> here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust
>> >> >> >> with
>> >> >> >> the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a
>> >> >> >> *trust*-based
>> >> >> >> platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either.
>> >> >> >> Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source
>> >> >> >> hardware
>> >> >> >> or
>> >> >> >> software (although these are in my opinion components towards an
>> >> >> >> effective shift in a positive direction that can help the
>> >> >> >> majority
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of
>> >> >> >> people.
>> >> >> >> We
>> >> >> >> here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real
>> >> >> >> relationships of trust*** over and above anything else.  Maybe
>> >> >> >> technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here.
>> >> >> >> (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post).
>> >> >> >> Trust,
>> >> >> >> real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive
>> >> >> >> insight
>> >> >> >> that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of
>> >> >> >> rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a
>> >> >> >> permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning,
>> >> >> >> re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth
>> >> >> >> creation,
>> >> >> >> and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing
>> >> >> >> political
>> >> >> >> parties that are aligned with our goals.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose
>> >> >> >> > <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my
>> >> >> >> >> schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move
>> >> >> >> >> much
>> >> >> >> >> on
>> >> >> >> >> any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for
>> >> >> >> >> Lansing
>> >> >> >> >> Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think
>> >> >> >> >> about
>> >> >> >> >> how
>> >> >> >> >> this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying
>> >> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> >> build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video
>> >> >> >> >> (Lansing
>> >> >> >> >> Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation
>> >> >> >> >> concepts
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century
>> >> >> >> >> economy,
>> >> >> >> >> with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other
>> >> >> >> >> places
>> >> >> >> >> at
>> >> >> >> >> the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people
>> >> >> >> >> worldwide
>> >> >> >> >> interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move
>> >> >> >> >> forward
>> >> >> >> >> here
>> >> >> >> >> in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll
>> >> >> >> >> break
>> >> >> >> >> out
>> >> >> >> >> some of the research over the summer that we are doing with
>> >> >> >> >> The
>> >> >> >> >> Five
>> >> >> >> >> Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things
>> >> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> >> specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a
>> >> >> >> >> better
>> >> >> >> >> idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and
>> >> >> >> >> model"
>> >> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> >> situation here.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens
>> >> >> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> > hi sam,
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported
>> >> >> >> >> > michigan
>> >> >> >> >> > situation yet,
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > this would be a good starting point,
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warning-about-emergency-financial-managers/
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > --
>> >> >> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>> >> >> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>> >> >> >> >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> >> >> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>> >> >> >> >> > http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> >> Sam Rose
>> >> >> >> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>> >> >> >> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> >> >> >> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> >> >> >> >> skype: samuelrose
>> >> >> >> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> >> >> >> >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
>> >> >> >> >> http://forwardfound.org
>> >> >> >> >> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>> >> >> >> >> http://p2pfoundation.net
>> >> >> >> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with
>> >> >> >> >> human
>> >> >> >> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > --
>> >> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>> >> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>> >> >> >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> >> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Sam Rose
>> >> >> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>> >> >> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> >> >> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> >> >> >> skype: samuelrose
>> >> >> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> >> >> >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
>> >> >> >> http://forwardfound.org
>> >> >> >> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>> >> >> >> http://p2pfoundation.net
>> >> >> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> >> >> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>> >> >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Sam Rose
>> >> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>> >> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> >> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> >> >> skype: samuelrose
>> >> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> >> >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
>> >> >> http://forwardfound.org
>> >> >> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>> >> >> http://p2pfoundation.net
>> >> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> >> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>> >> >
>> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>> >> >
>> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> --
>> >> Sam Rose
>> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> >> skype: samuelrose
>> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
>> >> http://forwardfound.org
>> >> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>> >> http://p2pfoundation.net
>> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> >>
>> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>> >
>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>> >
>> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Sam Rose
>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> skype: samuelrose
>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
>> http://forwardfound.org
>> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>
>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>
>
>
> --
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
>
>
>
>
>



-- 
--
Sam Rose
Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://futureforwardinstitute.com
http://forwardfound.org
http://hollymeadcapital.com
http://p2pfoundation.net
http://socialmediaclassroom.com

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan

• Previous message: [P2P-F] michigan developments
• Next message: [P2P-F] details on bolivia's nature law
• Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]