[P2P-F] michigan developments

Thu Apr 28 20:00:43 CEST 2011

Dear Sam,

I'm personally not suggesting that p2p people should create a political
party, BUT, I do think that we should have bridges to the institutional
world, and that includes a network of sympathetic politicians,

in Europe, for example around EU legislation, there is now a network of
digital rights organisations (opennet coalition) that can quickly not only
mobilize sympathizers, but also a network of national and european MEP's
that can be counted on to support p2p rights legislation ... generally
speaking, from experience, the Pirate Party (ies), the Greens and sections
of the left parties are generally sympathetic, while parties of the right
side with copyright maximalism ...; same for commons-related topics

I would suggest that this also needs to happen in the U.S., and I'm
hypothising that organisations like EFF are doing this?

so it's not about creating a p2p political party, but of meshworking
political and non-political people around shared concerns wherever they can
be active

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:54 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > my hunch is that such a movement also needs a cohesive leadership group
> > where there is already a priori trust, and that perhaps they launched
> 'too
> > fast' before there was any such coherence,
> >
> > michel
> >
> >
>
> I also think there is something to be said for the reality that a
> "party" is really a bottleneck, and a target for co-optation. Given
> people's lack of general political access here in Michigan, we're
> asking them to take a real gamble by throwing their lot in with a
> "party" that may have leadership with a different agenda than theirs.
> Parties are also a really convenient way to categorize, pidgeon hole,
> and "steer" people. You can invest huge amounts of time building a
> political party, and then watch some really undesirable people take it
> over. It's going to be extremely hard to convince me to put my own
> energy into a party after the experiences I've already been through
> participating in them in the past. Instead, I am really focused on
> providing plausible alternatives to food, energy, education,
> technology and culture systems in our cities and communities, where
> people can co-govern the resources, an collaborate with others in the
> region who are doing the same.
>
>
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Michel Bauwens <
> michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > certainly in the U.S. the whole system seems structurally 'stacked'
> >> > against
> >> > new political forces emerging outside of the 2 party system ...
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, I think that both of the parties need to be confronted with
> >> organized groups of people who are speaking for themselves, that are
> >> no co-opted and under either group's control.
> >>
> >> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Dear Sam,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > issues of power seem part of every social movement, but perhaps
> they
> >> >> > are
> >> >> > heigthened in party-political structures, as you seem to suggest,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I hope your own experiment will show a way forward that marries
> >> >> > political
> >> >> > efficicay and a way to avoid the  issues you are highlighting,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > however, I don't think I agree that these dynamics are what caused
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > fall
> >> >> > of the greens in michigan, since they appear in every political
> >> >> > party,
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > many of them are successfull even with such dynamics,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > so my hunch is the problem was another one,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Michel
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I think the dynamics, coupled with the lack of literacies of
> effective
> >> >> and trust based participation seemed to be the biggest problem. In
> >> >> other areas of the world and other cultures, the dynamics may emerge,
> >> >> but people are able to sort through them and move on. Here it seems
> >> >> with new political parties that there is a pathology that attracts a
> >> >> bad element, who co-opt and hijack. Many of the new party efforts
> seem
> >> >> to never recover from this. It may just be a part of our culture
> here.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Samuel Rose <
> samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > thank you Sam,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be
> to
> >> >> >> > map
> >> >> >> > out
> >> >> >> > commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach,  based on 8
> >> >> >> > principles
> >> >> >> > which when combined, given an indication of how a principled
> >> >> >> > policy
> >> >> >> > would
> >> >> >> > look like, see the falkvinge blog for that
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very strongly
> >> >> >> here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in
> the
> >> >> >> US
> >> >> >> with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive,
> the
> >> >> >> initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people
> who
> >> >> >> saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or
> >> >> >> personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others.
> The
> >> >> >> Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I
> think
> >> >> >> that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth
> >> >> >> *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's time
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and
> >> >> >> wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their
> >> >> >> insistence
> >> >> >> that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the
> >> >> >> people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the
> clock
> >> >> >> platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even
> >> >> >> harass
> >> >> >> people.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a
> >> >> >> non-party
> >> >> >> route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with
> >> >> >> existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the
> party
> >> >> >> and platform above people and their actual problems tends to
> >> >> >> consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a
> key
> >> >> >> here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust
> >> >> >> with
> >> >> >> the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a
> >> >> >> *trust*-based
> >> >> >> platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either.
> >> >> >> Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source
> hardware
> >> >> >> or
> >> >> >> software (although these are in my opinion components towards an
> >> >> >> effective shift in a positive direction that can help the majority
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of
> people.
> >> >> >> We
> >> >> >> here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real
> >> >> >> relationships of trust*** over and above anything else.  Maybe
> >> >> >> technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here.
> >> >> >> (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post). Trust,
> >> >> >> real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive
> insight
> >> >> >> that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is
> the
> >> >> >> most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of
> >> >> >> rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a
> >> >> >> permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning,
> >> >> >> re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth
> >> >> >> creation,
> >> >> >> and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing
> political
> >> >> >> parties that are aligned with our goals.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose
> >> >> >> > <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my
> >> >> >> >> schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move
> much
> >> >> >> >> on
> >> >> >> >> any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for
> >> >> >> >> Lansing
> >> >> >> >> Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think
> about
> >> >> >> >> how
> >> >> >> >> this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying
> to
> >> >> >> >> build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video
> >> >> >> >> (Lansing
> >> >> >> >> Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts
> >> >> >> >>
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century
> >> >> >> >> economy,
> >> >> >> >> with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other
> places
> >> >> >> >> at
> >> >> >> >> the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people
> >> >> >> >> worldwide
> >> >> >> >> interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move
> forward
> >> >> >> >> here
> >> >> >> >> in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll
> break
> >> >> >> >> out
> >> >> >> >> some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The
> >> >> >> >> Five
> >> >> >> >> Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things
> that
> >> >> >> >> are
> >> >> >> >> specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a
> >> >> >> >> better
> >> >> >> >> idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model"
> >> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> situation here.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> >> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> > hi sam,
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported
> >> >> >> >> > michigan
> >> >> >> >> > situation yet,
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > this would be a good starting point,
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warning-about-emergency-financial-managers/
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> >> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> >> Sam Rose
> >> >> >> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> >> >> >> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> >> >> >> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> >> >> >> >> skype: samuelrose
> >> >> >> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> >> >> >> >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
> >> >> >> >> http://forwardfound.org
> >> >> >> >> http://hollymeadcapital.com
> >> >> >> >> http://p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with
> human
> >> >> >> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> Sam Rose
> >> >> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> >> >> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> >> >> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> >> >> >> skype: samuelrose
> >> >> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> >> >> >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
> >> >> >> http://forwardfound.org
> >> >> >> http://hollymeadcapital.com
> >> >> >> http://p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> >> >> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> >> >
> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> --
> >> >> Sam Rose
> >> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> >> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> >> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> >> >> skype: samuelrose
> >> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> >> >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
> >> >> http://forwardfound.org
> >> >> http://hollymeadcapital.com
> >> >> http://p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> >> >>
> >> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> >> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >> >
> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> --
> >> Sam Rose
> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> >> skype: samuelrose
> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
> >> http://forwardfound.org
> >> http://hollymeadcapital.com
> >> http://p2pfoundation.net
> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> >>
> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Sam Rose
> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://futureforwardinstitute.com
> http://forwardfound.org
> http://hollymeadcapital.com
> http://p2pfoundation.net
> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>
> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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