Why I stopped using viper, and am going to stop using Evil
langec at web.de
Thu Mar 1 11:54:16 CET 2012
my 2 cents, well, maybe 10 cents, on your mail.
In short: Thanks for sharing your experience! Mine is quite different
2012-02-29 20:36 Matt Armstrong:
> In short: it is easier to use one editor at a time.
In contrast to your experience, I appreciate to be able to use two
editors at a time, and only Evil gives me the opportunity to do so.
I frequently use any Emacs keybindings that have not been overloaded
with vim keybindings by Evil. Not just the C-x and C-c prefixes, but
also a lot of M-something.
Sometimes Emacs is just more convenient than vi. Take for example M-c
(capitalize-word). This key has no meaning in vim (AFAIK), and it works
both in Evil's normal mode and in insert mode.
I don't care about the theoretical possiblity to introduce reasonable
keybindings in vim as well – I wouldn't want to make the effort.
> By default, Evil presents you vim key bindings, but makes you use Emacs key
> bindings too:
> (a) see the huge list of modes in evil-emacs-state-modes
This is a separate problem I'd say, but agree with your concerns about
this and would also appreciate an Evil solution for it. There used to
be viper-in-more-modes, which gave vi-style keybindings to a number of
typical Emacs modes. Indeed I would prefer vi-style keybindings to be
introduced for all modes currently in evil-emacs-state-modes, but it
will take time to get them implemented.
> (b) insert mode has Emacs key bindings
My feeling about vi's insert mode is that it wastes a lot of potential.
> On (b), Evil gives me M-q, C-a, C-v, etc. while in insert mode. This means
> I'm using two editors at once: vim and Emacs. In Evil, many very basic key
> bindings do wildly different things when switching from normal to insert
> mode and back: C-f, C-b, C-v, etc. Vim doesn't suffer from this (much)
> because insert mode is relatively free of key bindings.
It is IMHO a bug, not a feature, that, e.g., most (or even all?)
M-something keys are not bound in vim's insert mode.
> The vi -vs- Emacs dichotomy is always there, creating friction. This is
> certainly not the way Emacs would have designed its key commands were modal
> editing its initial design goal.
I agree that the design goal of Evil is (IIUC) to reproduce the vim
experience as closely as possible in Emacs. Still I think that Emacs
can do certain things (even about editing, not just about "being an
operating system") better than vi, and therefore I appreciate if these
features remain accessible in Evil. (OK, maybe as a customizable flag.)
But I might just be a privileged minority. If the main goal of Evil is
to give die-hard vim users an "operating system" (which vim doesn't
quite do), I am not in the target audience. I had advanced experience
with both Emacs and vim before starting to use Evil. (In short, I had
been using Emacs for writing large files, and vim for reading or for
writing small files.) Now I appreciate being able to use the best of
both editors in one editor.
Christoph Lange, http://www.facebook.com/ch.lange, Skype duke4701
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