[PeDAGoG] [REDlistserve] A new article on the RED website - "The path to a just and sustainable society"

[Carlos Tornel]

Thanks Ariel and Tom!

As I was saying to Ted, I just want to clarify that I'm not advocating nor
think that struggling to achieve state power is the way through - We have
the experiences of Bolivia and Ecuador with indigenous or indigenous backed
governments that tried to take control of the state only to find that the
state operates in a global capitalist context which meant for many of them
an increase forms of extraction and forms of violence against them and the
very nature that they gave rights to. So I do agree with Ted that this is
not the way forward, as well as with many Latin American thinkers who argue
along the same lines (Holloway, Esteva, Dinerstein, etc). What I was
thinking about was more in the lines of what can we still demand of the
actually existing state or use the tools that already exist within it, to
achieve some of the goals we want to achieve. I'm thinking particularly
about some indigenous communities' struggles that are suing the state or
demanding their rights be granted and respected. These are of course tools
that were built by and "inside" the master's house, so I wouldn't say these
will necessarily lead towards a more just or equal world, but they are
nonetheless tools we can use to resist as we move forwards in the creation
of a new world. So long story short, should we just ignore the state or can
we 'use it', not to conquer state power, but to use the tools at our
disposal keeping in mind that the ultimate goal should be societies that
are rid of the state?

This might refer back to the point Ariel was making about what can be
mediated with existing institutions. Although I'm not sure that I agree
with what Tom was mentioning. Why assume that life-saving medicine of
technological innovations such as solar panels of broadband need the State?
Just thinking about this in 10 year anniversary of Occupy shows that people
can organize food systems, health clinics, reflection and discussion groups
all without the state, universities of hospitals. Of course this doesn't
mean that we should get rid of the hospitals now, but we can surely work
our way forward so that all these institutions that are not necessarily
there for our well-being but to create and exacerbate our dependencies on
them can be rethought or simply cese to be needed in the not so distant
future?

Apologies for the long response but I do appreciate the chance to continue
this debate and listening to other folk's opinions!

All the best,

C.




El mié, 29 sept 2021 a las 14:14, Tom Abeles (<tabeles at gmail.com>) escribió:

> I would be concerned, living in such a world, if I needed life-saving
> medical services from vaccines to heart surgery. Similarly, I would be
> concerned without universities, research and technology which has given us
> solar panels, broadband internet and similar which is imbedded in much of
> what we use on a daily basis. The Buddhist Gross Happiness Index ponders
> these issues.
>
> On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 7:20 PM Ariel Salleh <arielsalleh7 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Nice point Carlos.
>> Considering how states are historically sex-gendered institutions may
>> offer a way forward that mediates yours and Ted’s position …?
>> Ariel
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28 Sep 2021, at 6:58 am, Carlos Tornel <tornelc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all and thanks Pallav for sharing this article!
>>
>> I'm relatively new on some of the lists, but I thought I could share some
>> thoughts after the reading.
>>
>> I found the article quite useful for thinking about how we can start to
>> build a post (growth, capitalism, extractive, etc.) society. I have faced
>> similar questions and concerns when advocating for a convivial or a
>> communal society in different spaces, such as what do we do with state
>> power? With armies, the military, nuclear weapons, etc.? How do we move
>> away from the Hobbian reality of power and the state? Several of the
>> anarchist and degrowth proponentes (although not so many have looked
>> seriously at this link until recently) have formulated proposals against
>> this, i.e. try to reduce our dependence on the state and progressively move
>> away from it. However this brings back the debate we've been having for
>> some time now in Latin America, should we seek to take back the state or
>> not? My own opinion is that we should, through several of the proposals
>> presented in the article, such as food and energy sovereignty, we can
>> progressively start to move away from the state, leading towards more
>> convivial societies. However it does seem that the state will have to play
>> a part in this transition, so perhaps we need to think of the transition
>> from one society to another in different scales and with different
>> agencies: I.e. What should we ask from the state? What can we do ourselves
>> in local and communal terms and how can we continue to build networks of
>> solidarity or communitarian entanglements at the regional, and even global
>> level.
>>
>> My thanks again Pallav for sharing and to Ted for a very insightful and
>> useful analysis.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>> El sáb, 25 sept 2021 a las 5:06, Pallav Das (<dpallav at gmail.com>)
>> escribió:
>> The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on “prefiguring” the new
>> social forms in the existing society. The most effective way to get people
>> to see the sense and the merits of the new ways is to establish as many
>> examples of them as possible here and now. This approach minimizes the
>> chances of violent conflict; if we persuade large numbers to the
>> alternative then radical change in structures might be brought about
>> peacefully.
>>
>>
>>
>> Friends,
>>
>> A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable society" has been
>> uploaded to the "Radical Ecological Democracy" website. In the second part
>> of his discussion on “Eco-anarchism”, Ted Trainer lays out the core
>> characteristics of a post consumer capitalist society, operating on the
>> principles of “The Simpler Way”.  Please share the article with your
>> networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The author is copied here
>> in case you would like to contact him directly.
>>
>>
>> https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainable-society/
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Pallav
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the
>> whole list, select "reply to all".
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Radical Ecological Democracy" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to radical_ecological_democracy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CAL3de_brtJZ6O6kTv41FmeW2_CKYMpoEaAqqZWUyCiJcN5etzA%40mail.gmail.com
>> .
>>
>> --
>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the
>> whole list, select "reply to all".
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Radical Ecological Democracy" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to radical_ecological_democracy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CABZEAVC1jxrYt5aYNz%3Dh8oSxUPkG3Vin4nNPV81v%3DupubT4XJQ%40mail.gmail.com
>> .
>>
>> --
>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the
>> whole list, select "reply to all".
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Radical Ecological Democracy" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to radical_ecological_democracy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/D21EBCF3-F7D8-48E8-938E-B02E3AE874BF%40gmail.com
>> .
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/gta-pedagog/attachments/20210929/8c6ebbad/attachment-0001.html>