[PeDAGoG] A new article on RED website - "We thought it was fiction"

Fri Sep 24 17:32:22 CEST 2021

Sure Jai. Thanks for stepping in.

There are a lot of great discussions on these forums which I am slowly
getting exposed to. I'd be happy to re-enter those in which all parties
feel respected and in a safe space.

For the record, I've been listening and lurking quite a while here - with
intent to learn. I also don't identify with political binaries, so that
might be confusing for some folks (is 'forward' allowed as a political
orientation?! 😆). Hopefully I will find mutual understanding in some
particular exchanges.

Thank you,

On Fri, Sep 24, 2021, 8:55 PM Jai Sen <jai.sen at cacim.net> wrote:

> Friday, September 24, 2021
>
>
>
> Greetings, all
>
>             I’m here weighing in as list admin for WSMDiscuss, one of the
> lists where Pallav Das posted the article that we’re discussing here.  I
> have my own thoughts and comments on the article, but here, I would just
> like to come in and request – as list admin - both ‘sides’ in the sharp
> exchange here to try and step back a bit, take a deep breath, and consider
> the enormous significance of the subject being discussed; and in this light
> – and heat -, try and modify language and position in ways that allow
> critical discussion to continue (including by staying in the space and
> conversation).
>
>             Two things : One, and just for the record, Hari even
> anticipated this in his original post, as follows :
>
> Please entertain these questions/challenges from someone who neither
> pretends to be an activist nor an expert on the topic. Hopefully the
> discussion won't get 'acrimonious'!
>
> Please, let’s all try to take this into account !
>
>             And two, let’s also try and keep in mind that lists are - all
> said and done – not real world and time spaces, and so we all need to try
> to accordingly speak.  There’s something ‘final’ about the written word…
>
>             In hope that we all can – and that Hari, you will be willing
> to come back in –
>
>             Jai Sen
>
> On Sep 23, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Hari DK <hari.coding at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Finally, we don’t see questions like the ones above being rooted in
> affirming life. Often these questions above are used facetiously to
> discredit or seem “right” about the issue of surveillance and to defend an
> indefensible system of colonial, capitalist, white supremacist, and
> patriarchy."
>
> Ken - I interpreted this to mean "we don't like these questions".
> Apologies if that was not the case. I also don't think I am an apologist
> for settler violence or colonialism. Could we avoid ad hominem please?
>
> Let's end the conversation since it serves no purpose.
> Thank you
>
>
> On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 23:13, Ken Montenegro <kmontenegro at comeuppance.net>
> wrote:
>
>> To be clear, your mischaracterization of "committed to learning and
>> collaboration in our journeys towards the abolition of state violence of
>> all sorts, and welcome dialogue that moves us in that direction" with
>> "critical questioning may not be welcome" is precisely why these
>> discussions need to happen in public and apologists for settler colonialism
>> and fascism need to be exposed. Thank you for your exposure.
>> --ken
>> Ken Montenegro :: Technologist, Lawyer, Factotum ::
>> https://flowcrypt.com/me/kmontenegro
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 12:38 PM Hari DK <hari.coding at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Christine,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your balanced comments and links to reading. Of course I
>>> don't disagree with what you say. Will think over as I learn more. It's
>>> also interesting that those who spy on us have also had their own privacy
>>> removed. According to Snowden's book, *Permanent Record,* it was fully
>>> possible to enter even the President of the USA's name in XKEYSCORE
>>> searches, etc.
>>>
>>> Dear Ken, Melanie, Alfredo, Hamid,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your comments. I am still not sure I agree with your
>>> conclusions. However, I will step out of the discussion as you have
>>> mentioned that critical questioning may not be welcome. Good luck on your
>>> endeavour,
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 18:52, Pallav Das <dpallav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Friends,
>>>>
>>>> The following response from the authors of the latest article on the
>>>> Radical Ecological Democracy website, "We thought it was fiction" was just
>>>> uploaded on Gitlab. I'm copying it here for the larger readership. A couple
>>>> of other previous responses are also copied further below. We look forward
>>>> to a healthy discussion.
>>>>
>>>> From* Ken Montenegro, Melanie Bush, Alfredo Lopez and Hamid Khan:*
>>>>
>>>> In discussions about weaponized surveillance, people will sometimes
>>>> raise questions such as:
>>>>
>>>>    1. Would you support the abolition of spying software if it meant
>>>>    increasing terror attacks because there is no monitor?
>>>>    2. Why can’t we just regulate these weapons given that “vigilance
>>>>    is the price of liberty”? Isn’t surveillance a small price to pay for
>>>>    safety?
>>>>    3. Isn’t it impossible to undo the spying built-into modern
>>>>    technology?
>>>>    4. What do we have to hide?
>>>>
>>>> We support an abolitionist approach precisely because spying software
>>>> has not prevented terror attacks. Moreover, the focus of avoiding imaginary
>>>> terror attacks avoids responsibility for the settler colonialist origins of
>>>> what the Stop LAPD Spying Coalition called the “stalker state.” The
>>>> relationship between anti-Blackness and the national security police state
>>>> is made evident here:
>>>> https://stoplapdspying.medium.com/anti-blackness-and-the-national-security-police-state-that-civil-liberties-advocacy-built-f8d1d5418c42)
>>>> If we take an historical perspective and aspire to undo the harm these
>>>> tools cause, then abolition is the only reasonable conclusion.
>>>>
>>>> Abolition is the only reasonable conclusion precisely because attempts
>>>> at reform or regulation end up as spectacular failures. In what is
>>>> currently called the United States, brave folks have always fought to reign
>>>> in police and state violence. Those efforts have largely failed because
>>>> they preserve institutions and practices that are racist and violent to
>>>> their core and from their very foundation. Folks who uphold specious
>>>> arguments like, “you have nothing to hide” or “vigilance is the price of
>>>> liberty” fail to acknowledge how Indigenous and Black folks in the United
>>>> States have always borne the brunt of state surveillance and its ensuing
>>>> violence. It is part and parcel of the very system itself as a means of
>>>> control and management. Abolition removes the “price” from “liberty”; it
>>>> makes it free.
>>>>
>>>> We are committed to a long-term struggle toward that freedom. While it
>>>> might seem that a world without rampant digital surveillance is impossible,
>>>> we are dedicated to visions of change where technology is about improving
>>>> life and not controlling others. We know there is a possible alternative
>>>> because rampant corporate & governance surveillance is new. Twenty years
>>>> ago, such a dystopia was unimaginable.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, we don’t see questions like the ones above being rooted in
>>>> affirming life. Often these questions above are used facetiously to
>>>> discredit or seem “right” about the issue of surveillance and to defend an
>>>> indefensible system of colonial, capitalist, white supremacist, and
>>>> patriarchy. May First Movement Technology is committed to learning and
>>>> collaboration in our journeys towards the abolition of state violence of
>>>> all sorts, and welcome dialogue that moves us in that direction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> I think you might find some answers to your questions in this article,
>>>> Hari -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/surveillance-state-september-11-panic-made-us-vulnerable
>>>>
>>>> It gives a very detailed account of how biased, excessive and either
>>>> damaging or ineffective the state and corporate spying in the USA has been
>>>> post 9/11. Also phenomenally expensive.
>>>>
>>>> More information on how the spying potential of IT is abused by states
>>>> is available from the University of Toronto's Citizen Lab (
>>>> https://citizenlab.ca/). Last year it exposed the hacking of
>>>> journalists' phones by an Israeli spy agency. This has literally put lives
>>>> in danger, and may have contributed to the murder of the journalist  Jamal
>>>> Kashoggi in the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul in 2018.
>>>>
>>>> One of the few clever and positive uses of technology to keep people
>>>> safe recently is the international anti-drug smuggling initiative reported
>>>> on here -
>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/11/inside-story-most-daring-surveillance-sting-in-history
>>>> In this instance, however, only those people who were known bad actors or
>>>> in close contact with bad actors were targetted for surveillance - and this
>>>> is how any legitimate surveillance operation should work.
>>>>
>>>> Sadly, it is far more common for 'good actors' - like those protesting
>>>> racism, or reporting on state misdemeanours, for example - to be targetted
>>>> and harassed, which is just a giant form of state 'phishing' - completely
>>>> illegitimate and it should stop immediately.
>>>>
>>>> But as I don't see any chance that the military-industrial complex (now
>>>> including Big Tech) is about to stop working for and with the Market-State
>>>> any where any time soon, and as demands for ethical behaviour don't cut any
>>>> ice on this issue as with climate change and so many others, I think the
>>>> only realistic position for good actors, be they activists or journalists,
>>>> is to assume that their digital communication devices can and will be
>>>> hacked at any time, and to take every precaution accordingly. Including not
>>>> using a 'smart' phone at all, as in the preference of one investigative
>>>> journalist I know.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps!
>>>>
>>>> Christine
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 2:52 PM Pallav Das <dpallav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *"Among the most glaring omissions in our arsenal as a movement is the
>>>>> absence of a simple statement: we oppose government and corporate
>>>>> surveillance of all kinds, we will never support it, and we will not work
>>>>> with anyone who does. "*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Friends,
>>>>>
>>>>> A new article, "We thought it was fiction", has been uploaded to the
>>>>> Radical Ecological Democracy website. Alfredo Lopez, Melanie Bush, Hamid
>>>>> Khan and Ken Montenegro, our colleagues from "May First Movement
>>>>> Technology", discuss the threat posed by Pegasus, the malicious hacking
>>>>> software, and how the progressive and “alternatives” communities
>>>>> should organize to push back against this steady erosion of people’s
>>>>> rights, and work to end tech dominance and intrusion into our lives. Please
>>>>> share the article with your networks and join the discussion on
>>>>> REDlistserv. The authors are copied here in case you would like to contact
>>>>> them directly.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Pallav
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read more
>>>>> <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> .
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Hari Dilip Kumar
>>>
>>> *The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me/> | Initiative
>>> for Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/>*
>>> *LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/>* |
>>> *Skype *haridk.skype
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Hari Dilip Kumar
>
> *The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me/> | Initiative for
> Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/>*
> *LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/>* |
> *Skype *haridk.skype
>
>
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> .
>
>
> ____________________________
>
> Jai Sen
>
> Independent researcher, editor; Senior Fellow at the School of
> International Development and Globalisation Studies at the University of
> Ottawa
>
> jai.sen at cacim.net &  <jsen at uottawa.ca>jsen at uottawa.ca
>
> Now based in Ottawa, Canada, on unsurrendered Anishinaabe territory (+1-613-282
> 2900) and in New Delhi, India (+91-98189 11325)
>
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>
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