[PeDAGoG] [vikalp-sangam-list] Re: A new article on RED website - "We thought it was fiction"

Thu Sep 23 19:52:19 CEST 2021

"Finally, we don’t see questions like the ones above being rooted in
affirming life. Often these questions above are used facetiously to
discredit or seem “right” about the issue of surveillance and to defend an
indefensible system of colonial, capitalist, white supremacist, and
patriarchy."

Ken - I interpreted this to mean "we don't like these questions". Apologies
if that was not the case. I also don't think I am an apologist for settler
violence or colonialism. Could we avoid ad hominem please?

Let's end the conversation since it serves no purpose.
Thank you

On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 23:13, Ken Montenegro <kmontenegro at comeuppance.net>
wrote:

> To be clear, your mischaracterization of "committed to learning and
> collaboration in our journeys towards the abolition of state violence of
> all sorts, and welcome dialogue that moves us in that direction" with
> "critical questioning may not be welcome" is precisely why these
> discussions need to happen in public and apologists for settler colonialism
> and fascism need to be exposed. Thank you for your exposure.
> --ken
> Ken Montenegro :: Technologist, Lawyer, Factotum ::
> https://flowcrypt.com/me/kmontenegro
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 12:38 PM Hari DK <hari.coding at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Christine,
>>
>> Thank you for your balanced comments and links to reading. Of course I
>> don't disagree with what you say. Will think over as I learn more. It's
>> also interesting that those who spy on us have also had their own privacy
>> removed. According to Snowden's book, *Permanent Record,* it was fully
>> possible to enter even the President of the USA's name in XKEYSCORE
>> searches, etc.
>>
>> Dear Ken, Melanie, Alfredo, Hamid,
>>
>> Thank you for your comments. I am still not sure I agree with your
>> conclusions. However, I will step out of the discussion as you have
>> mentioned that critical questioning may not be welcome. Good luck on your
>> endeavour,
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 18:52, Pallav Das <dpallav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Friends,
>>>
>>> The following response from the authors of the latest article on the
>>> Radical Ecological Democracy website, "We thought it was fiction" was just
>>> uploaded on Gitlab. I'm copying it here for the larger readership. A couple
>>> of other previous responses are also copied further below. We look forward
>>> to a healthy discussion.
>>>
>>> From* Ken Montenegro, Melanie Bush, Alfredo Lopez and Hamid Khan:*
>>>
>>> In discussions about weaponized surveillance, people will sometimes
>>> raise questions such as:
>>>
>>>    1. Would you support the abolition of spying software if it meant
>>>    increasing terror attacks because there is no monitor?
>>>    2. Why can’t we just regulate these weapons given that “vigilance is
>>>    the price of liberty”? Isn’t surveillance a small price to pay for safety?
>>>    3. Isn’t it impossible to undo the spying built-into modern
>>>    technology?
>>>    4. What do we have to hide?
>>>
>>> We support an abolitionist approach precisely because spying software
>>> has not prevented terror attacks. Moreover, the focus of avoiding imaginary
>>> terror attacks avoids responsibility for the settler colonialist origins of
>>> what the Stop LAPD Spying Coalition called the “stalker state.” The
>>> relationship between anti-Blackness and the national security police state
>>> is made evident here:
>>> https://stoplapdspying.medium.com/anti-blackness-and-the-national-security-police-state-that-civil-liberties-advocacy-built-f8d1d5418c42)
>>> If we take an historical perspective and aspire to undo the harm these
>>> tools cause, then abolition is the only reasonable conclusion.
>>>
>>> Abolition is the only reasonable conclusion precisely because attempts
>>> at reform or regulation end up as spectacular failures. In what is
>>> currently called the United States, brave folks have always fought to reign
>>> in police and state violence. Those efforts have largely failed because
>>> they preserve institutions and practices that are racist and violent to
>>> their core and from their very foundation. Folks who uphold specious
>>> arguments like, “you have nothing to hide” or “vigilance is the price of
>>> liberty” fail to acknowledge how Indigenous and Black folks in the United
>>> States have always borne the brunt of state surveillance and its ensuing
>>> violence. It is part and parcel of the very system itself as a means of
>>> control and management. Abolition removes the “price” from “liberty”; it
>>> makes it free.
>>>
>>> We are committed to a long-term struggle toward that freedom. While it
>>> might seem that a world without rampant digital surveillance is impossible,
>>> we are dedicated to visions of change where technology is about improving
>>> life and not controlling others. We know there is a possible alternative
>>> because rampant corporate & governance surveillance is new. Twenty years
>>> ago, such a dystopia was unimaginable.
>>>
>>> Finally, we don’t see questions like the ones above being rooted in
>>> affirming life. Often these questions above are used facetiously to
>>> discredit or seem “right” about the issue of surveillance and to defend an
>>> indefensible system of colonial, capitalist, white supremacist, and
>>> patriarchy. May First Movement Technology is committed to learning and
>>> collaboration in our journeys towards the abolition of state violence of
>>> all sorts, and welcome dialogue that moves us in that direction.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I think you might find some answers to your questions in this article,
>>> Hari -
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/surveillance-state-september-11-panic-made-us-vulnerable
>>>
>>> It gives a very detailed account of how biased, excessive and either
>>> damaging or ineffective the state and corporate spying in the USA has been
>>> post 9/11. Also phenomenally expensive.
>>>
>>> More information on how the spying potential of IT is abused by states
>>> is available from the University of Toronto's Citizen Lab (
>>> https://citizenlab.ca/). Last year it exposed the hacking of
>>> journalists' phones by an Israeli spy agency. This has literally put lives
>>> in danger, and may have contributed to the murder of the journalist  Jamal
>>> Kashoggi in the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul in 2018.
>>>
>>> One of the few clever and positive uses of technology to keep people
>>> safe recently is the international anti-drug smuggling initiative reported
>>> on here -
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/11/inside-story-most-daring-surveillance-sting-in-history
>>> In this instance, however, only those people who were known bad actors or
>>> in close contact with bad actors were targetted for surveillance - and this
>>> is how any legitimate surveillance operation should work.
>>>
>>> Sadly, it is far more common for 'good actors' - like those protesting
>>> racism, or reporting on state misdemeanours, for example - to be targetted
>>> and harassed, which is just a giant form of state 'phishing' - completely
>>> illegitimate and it should stop immediately.
>>>
>>> But as I don't see any chance that the military-industrial complex (now
>>> including Big Tech) is about to stop working for and with the Market-State
>>> any where any time soon, and as demands for ethical behaviour don't cut any
>>> ice on this issue as with climate change and so many others, I think the
>>> only realistic position for good actors, be they activists or journalists,
>>> is to assume that their digital communication devices can and will be
>>> hacked at any time, and to take every precaution accordingly. Including not
>>> using a 'smart' phone at all, as in the preference of one investigative
>>> journalist I know.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps!
>>>
>>> Christine
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 2:52 PM Pallav Das <dpallav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> *"Among the most glaring omissions in our arsenal as a movement is the
>>>> absence of a simple statement: we oppose government and corporate
>>>> surveillance of all kinds, we will never support it, and we will not work
>>>> with anyone who does. "*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Friends,
>>>>
>>>> A new article, "We thought it was fiction", has been uploaded to the
>>>> Radical Ecological Democracy website. Alfredo Lopez, Melanie Bush, Hamid
>>>> Khan and Ken Montenegro, our colleagues from "May First Movement
>>>> Technology", discuss the threat posed by Pegasus, the malicious hacking
>>>> software, and how the progressive and “alternatives” communities
>>>> should organize to push back against this steady erosion of people’s
>>>> rights, and work to end tech dominance and intrusion into our lives. Please
>>>> share the article with your networks and join the discussion on
>>>> REDlistserv. The authors are copied here in case you would like to contact
>>>> them directly.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Pallav
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read more
>>>> <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Hari Dilip Kumar
>>
>> *The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me> | Initiative for
>> Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/>*
>> *LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/>* |
>> *Skype *haridk.skype
>>
>>

-- 
Hari Dilip Kumar

*The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me> | Initiative for
Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/>*
*LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/>* |
*Skype *haridk.skype
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