Hay una muy intresante frase. Hay que leerlo. " You're the one asking me to stand up for you personally, asking me to lie to protect you. *That* is too hard." y.... es una frase de Alexander a mafioheinz. gracias Alexander juan Re: [Team] Mea culpa: Error acerca de la Historia de la FSFLA Date: Yesterday 08:18:31 pm From: Alexandre Oliva <[email protected]> (Free thinker, not speaking for FSF Latin America) To: Federico Heinz <[email protected]> CC: [email protected] Switching to team, for cons@ is for discussions in portuñol, and this one is in English. Upthread, Federico disputed the fact, that I posted on personal capacity to a public list, that FSFLA in its early days was effectively under control of Vía Libre, and formally requested me to take it back. He then proceeded to disavow and discredit myself, Daniel Olivera, and “these people” from SOLAR and Hipatia, that I've been talking to. In case anyone is interested, the thread starts here. http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/cons/2009-August/001499.html in response to these public messages in Spanish: http://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/solar-general/2009-August/050547.html http://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/solar-general/2009-August/050540.html On Aug 6, 2009, Federico Heinz <[email protected]> wrote:

I stand by the decision I took at that moment, as an individual, and Vía Libre had nothing to do with it.

We were talking about whether Vía Libre controlled FSFLA. I have no idea of what specific decision you're talking about. Is it about that SELF project sponsored by the European Union, that *Fernanda* had arranged for *FSFLA* to participate in along with other FSFes? http://www.selfproject.eu/bg/project/whoiswho Is it about the *two* people that we were invited to appoint to represent *FSFLA* in the GPLv3 conference in Japan? http://web.archive.org/web/20061029232747/http://gplv3.fsij.org/ http://web.archive.org/web/20061205234934/http://gplv3.fsij.org/ Or is it something covered by the confidentiality agreement you demanded before y'all'd let us reboot FSFLA? What you're trying to do is pretty obvious. While on the one hand you play the “doing as an individual” card, in the other you try to get the FSFLA board to interfere with what *I* do, on personal capacity, to try to resolve a long-term mess that Vía Libre dragged FSFLA into. I can understand why the thought of having that resolved terrifies you. Sorry, I'm not the one with skeletons hidden in the proverbial backyard, and I'm not interested in paying for the ones your left in ours.

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If you really want to pursue this, please do so in the same forums where the claims were made. Then I'll back up my claims there.

No.

Excellent.

You made a false assertion in public, and I ask you to retract it

I've already told you what you should do in case you'd like to pursue the request for me to retract the claim that Vía Libre effectively controlled the early FSFLA, but it seems that you missed it, so I'll repeat: You want me to retract something I said on personal capacity on a public forum, ask *me*, on personal capacity, on the same public forum, and face the consequences. You want to *FSFLA* to do that, you're barking up the wrong tree: FSFLA didn't make such a claim. You want FSFLA to disavow my claim, then our internal lists would be the right forum, but that's not what you asked for. Please remember that our confidentiality agreement had one exception: information could be shared with newer members, if this would help the organization. I would rightfully and legitimately use this exception to try and stop the organization from lying (which it might do if it were to believe you), and to avoid placing excessive trust on someone who does not deserve so much of it.

for the sake of the good relations of FSFLA with a fellow free software organization.

Why are you taking the very kind of “with us or against us” attitude that you and Bea warned me about in Rosario? Is Hipatia not the only organization that allegedly hates whatever other organization it can't control? Isn't this what shrinks refer to as projection?

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[...] One gets to wonder what your motives are to try and discredit him and the attack the project he leads suffered.

Perfect! Now you are spreading unfounded suspicion, wondering at hidden motives.

The motives are quite plain to me, and the suspicion is far from unfounded. You have a long tradition of discrediting people who oppose you, your points of view, or who know about your dirty secrets. You're very good at discrediting your opponents and covering your tracks.

No wonder you get on so good with the flamers. I only hope someone will find out who was responsible for the attack (assuming there even was one).

Should I be concerned about who was responsible for the attack on the UTUTO servers? I was referring to no more than your campaign to discredit Daniel Olivera. Are you saying these two issues are actually related?

Even the fact that I bother writing these messages should be indication enough for you that I care enough about FSFLA and the way you are hurting its image.

And it's just a coincidence that you chose to do so along with a demand to retract a claim that did the *opposite* of hurting its image, and that seems to have actually put an end to the attacks on it because of the *false* image created by, let's see, the organization whose image you *actually* care about.

Sorry if in trying to help FSFLA I am very critical of you personally

No hard feelings about that, it's perfectly understandable given the circumstances. Even more so from someone who long ago told me he didn't believe in a subconscious mind, to conclude that he have conscious control of all his actions.

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Now, if you honestly want to help us advance and thrive, you might as well help us improve FSFLA's relationships with SOLAR and Hipatia.

No, for two reasons:

1) I try my best never to attempt impossibles, it's bad for my blood pressure. Long odds I can take, but miracles is not my department.

Oh, wow, I didn't realize I could do miracles! ;-)

2) Good relations with SoLAr and Hipatia are not a precondition for advancing and thriving, or doing useful work and advocacy for free software in Latin America.

Agreed.

If they wish to be contentious

Surprise! They're not the ones being contentious any more.

just let them do their stuff, and let FSFLA do its own.

We've done that for a while. Likewise with Vía Libre. As in FSFLA's declaration, I wish we could all work together to accomplish more. But that doesn't make working together easy.

You make it damn hard to stand up for you personally

I don't ask that of you. You're the one asking me to stand up for you personally, asking me to lie to protect you. *That* is too hard.

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Attitudes in Martín's and Diego's followups to the messages below, such as “accepting apologies”, rather than suspicion, claim-disputing and feeling fooled and insulted, don't come across as trollish to me.

Are you surprised they would do that when you write that Bea and I are not trustworthy, and that FSFLA was controlled by Vía Libre?

Not at all. It was no surprise to me that they shared my feelings and related well with that. It's not like I told them anything about you that they didn't already know, so why should you be concerned with it? Heck, I went to great lengths to protect you, even while that spoke against myself and FSFLA, because I somehow got stuck in this thinking that the confidentiality agreement implied some moral obligation to protect you. But you know what?, you recently advised me to talk to my shrink about it. That was all talked about on my regular weekly session on Monday, on an extra session on Wednesday. As you could see yourself, the Wednesday session was quite liberating for me. Thanks for the advice.

Do you realize that by saying those things you jeopardize the proven goodwill of an organization that has always been willing to work with FSFLA

Hey, take back this threat to the shop where you got it, and demand a replacement, it might still be under warranty. Threats are not supposed to be empty. I don't know of any good we have ever got from Vía Libre. I'm not willing to live a lie to get what I understand Vía Libre has historically offered me and FSFLA. Now, maybe you could prove me wrong, and rather than making vague and improvable claims such as “there is not a single instance in which either Vía Libre or I personally failed to help FSFLA when it was within our reach to do so”, name whatever you have done for FSFLA in the past 5 years. Bear in mind that FSFLA is not Vía Libre, or a platform to advance Vía Libre; I remember you had a bit of a hard time telling them apart back in the days. As for your threatening FSFLA because of *I* said *I* had trusted you and Bea more than you deserved, I was not talking about the organization you run, but rather about two people. Are you meddling your personal life with the institutional life of organizations you run, again? I suggest you to let Bea deal with these issues if they come up again. She's not even close to as insulting and demeaning as you are, and that's not the only reason why she is on these lists and you aren't. Thank you, -- Alexandre Oliva, freedom fighter http://FSFLA.org/~lxoliva/ You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Gandhi Be Free! -- http://FSFLA.org/ FSF Latin America board member Free Software Evangelist Red Hat Brazil Compiler Engineer _______________________________________________ Team mailing list [email protected] http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/te ------------------------------------------------------- -- Fingerprint = EBFC CDE9 E57C 3EAD 65B1 2A59 5364 48C8 EACF 7357 Public key = 0xEACF7357 at http://pgp.mit.edu