---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Paul B. Hartzog <[email protected]> on hierarchy/egalitarianism , selfism/altruism Barabasi modeled it using "preferential attachment" networks and identified one way that power laws of inequality could emerge. Trebor has recently shifted to "platform cooperativism" and has an event in NYC coming up that Nicholas will be at. 1) In the last chapter in Howard Rheingold's book "Smart Mobs" "Always on Panopticon... or Cooperation Amplifier" he mentions that "smart mob" doesn't mean "good mob." Swarming is a behavior not a moral choice. When I used to teach Smart Mobs theory, this is one crucial point I always made sure to cover. 2) Sanctions, punishment, and even "altruistic punishment" are well-studied and there is a lot of good reading. We summarized some it on cooperaitioncommons.org Refs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barab%C3%A1si%E2%80%93Albert_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_attachment http://platformcoop.net/ https://medium.com/@trebors/platform-cooperativism-vs-the-sharing-economy-2e... http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Mobs-Next-Social-Revolution/dp/0738208612 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_mob "Altruistic punishment may be the glue that holds societies together" http://cooperationcommons.com/node/345 "norms can emerge and stabilize only if those who fail to punish violators are also punished." http://cooperationcommons.com/node/334 "Evolution of Indirect Reciprocity" http://cooperationcommons.com/node/354 "On the Evolutionary Foundations of Human Altruism" (strong reciprocity) http://cooperationcommons.com/node/368 "behavior with preferences for altruism, equality and reciprocity, reflections of a human dedication to social norms even at personal cost." http://cooperationcommons.com/node/333 off the top of my head ;-) -p ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.PaulBHartzog.org [email protected] (o|o) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back. ~ Ueshiba Morihei The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms. ~ Muriel Rukeyser Act as if what you do makes a difference. It does. ~ William James We come out of the world, not into it. ~ Alan Watts If the path before you is clear, you're probably on someone else's ~ Joseph Campbell Perceive differently, then you will act differently. ~ Paul B. Hartzog ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 6:20 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu < [email protected]> wrote:
and it scared me...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDcaBe4IAMY
Gregarious animals do it...
Those in our society who will understand the power of collaboration and will master the grammar of swarms will adopt their behavior to increase their chance of success, and that can come to the detriment of any one else, or any organization that stands in their way. It's game theory...
Trust is not important in large scale p2p systems. Those who understand the p2p economics will adopt this behavior, they will act stigmergically, and as they reach the critical mass they become an attractor, imposing norms and culture to new comers, growing by feeding on its success. We see this with Bitcion.
That is good news if we think about the scaling and spreading of p2p. It can be a quite fast phenomena.
*Can that stigmergy create swarms that don't follow good ethics and justice? Michel asked me a similar question here <https://youtu.be/GQjscYS33u8?t=9m31s>.* My answer was that the majority of people would opt out in a open (voluntary) system. My argument has always been that Wikipedia is a proof that humans are in majority good, otherwise the bad guys would overpower the good ones in an open system like Wikipedia, and it could not exist. But Wikipedia is a specific context. It doesn't offer incentives to go against good content. Will people have the choice to opt out when the sward driven by a specific set of incentives will give them two choices - live with us or suffer. Street gangs operate that way... it is hard to chose the third option, which is to opt out, get out of the hood, get an education or a job.
hmmmmm...
Is a violet swarm more damaging than classical violent phenomena? Are we going to see swarms going at each others, keeping social stability?
Are we going to see Anonimous against a legion or dark hackers swarming at each others.
What is social clash going to look like in the future?
Or I am a bit paranoia tonight? : )
I need to admit that I am instinctively using some of that to "punish" those who step out of the line, who don't attribute authorship for example, who don't respect the 10 commandments <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/the-ten-commandments-of-peer-production-and-commons-economics/2015/10/24>, I do that from my personal frustration and to preserve the network, and I learned how to do it in a way that generates peer pressure. All the past SENSORICA conflicts were solved in this way. essentially swarming the bad guy to the edges of the network, through peer pressure or by mass ignoring the person. It uses the reputation system, and there's a way to do it very effectively. Now, believe me, I am acting to preserve SENSORICA from sharks and freeloaders. It is still an art, but I feel that this can be very well formalized, which can become a formidable social weapon.
-- t!b! <http://www.google.com/profiles/tiberius.brastaviceanu> co-founder of SENSORICA <http://www.sensorica.co>, an open, decentralized and self-organizing value network (an open enterprise)
founder of Multitude Project <http://multitudeproject.blogspot.ca/>
Google Profile <https://plus.google.com/117593809719446924575/about> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000279944184> Twitter @TiberiusB <http://twitter.com/TiberiusB>
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
thanx to Paul BHartzog for these insightful links. One may also consider Dessalles' Simplicity Theory to explain that kind of behaviours and to try to envision their possible evolution Please find some links in my last paper https://www.academia.edu/16621395/Refounding_Legitimacy_Toward_a_Global_Immu... Olivier On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 5:07 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Paul B. Hartzog <[email protected]>
on hierarchy/egalitarianism , selfism/altruism
Barabasi modeled it using "preferential attachment" networks and identified one way that power laws of inequality could emerge. Trebor has recently shifted to "platform cooperativism" and has an event in NYC coming up that Nicholas will be at.
1) In the last chapter in Howard Rheingold's book "Smart Mobs" "Always on Panopticon... or Cooperation Amplifier" he mentions that "smart mob" doesn't mean "good mob." Swarming is a behavior not a moral choice. When I used to teach Smart Mobs theory, this is one crucial point I always made sure to cover.
2) Sanctions, punishment, and even "altruistic punishment" are well-studied and there is a lot of good reading. We summarized some it on cooperaitioncommons.org
Refs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barab%C3%A1si%E2%80%93Albert_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_attachment
https://medium.com/@trebors/platform-cooperativism-vs-the-sharing-economy-2e...
http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Mobs-Next-Social-Revolution/dp/0738208612 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_mob
"Altruistic punishment may be the glue that holds societies together" http://cooperationcommons.com/node/345
"norms can emerge and stabilize only if those who fail to punish violators are also punished." http://cooperationcommons.com/node/334
"Evolution of Indirect Reciprocity" http://cooperationcommons.com/node/354
"On the Evolutionary Foundations of Human Altruism" (strong reciprocity) http://cooperationcommons.com/node/368
"behavior with preferences for altruism, equality and reciprocity, reflections of a human dedication to social norms even at personal cost." http://cooperationcommons.com/node/333
off the top of my head ;-) -p
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.PaulBHartzog.org [email protected] (o|o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back. ~ Ueshiba Morihei
The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms. ~ Muriel Rukeyser
Act as if what you do makes a difference. It does. ~ William James
We come out of the world, not into it. ~ Alan Watts
If the path before you is clear, you're probably on someone else's ~ Joseph Campbell
Perceive differently, then you will act differently. ~ Paul B. Hartzog
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 6:20 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu < [email protected]> wrote:
and it scared me...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDcaBe4IAMY
Gregarious animals do it...
Those in our society who will understand the power of collaboration and will master the grammar of swarms will adopt their behavior to increase their chance of success, and that can come to the detriment of any one else, or any organization that stands in their way. It's game theory...
Trust is not important in large scale p2p systems. Those who understand the p2p economics will adopt this behavior, they will act stigmergically, and as they reach the critical mass they become an attractor, imposing norms and culture to new comers, growing by feeding on its success. We see this with Bitcion.
That is good news if we think about the scaling and spreading of p2p. It can be a quite fast phenomena.
*Can that stigmergy create swarms that don't follow good ethics and justice? Michel asked me a similar question here <https://youtu.be/GQjscYS33u8?t=9m31s>.* My answer was that the majority of people would opt out in a open (voluntary) system. My argument has always been that Wikipedia is a proof that humans are in majority good, otherwise the bad guys would overpower the good ones in an open system like Wikipedia, and it could not exist. But Wikipedia is a specific context. It doesn't offer incentives to go against good content. Will people have the choice to opt out when the sward driven by a specific set of incentives will give them two choices - live with us or suffer. Street gangs operate that way... it is hard to chose the third option, which is to opt out, get out of the hood, get an education or a job.
hmmmmm...
Is a violet swarm more damaging than classical violent phenomena? Are we going to see swarms going at each others, keeping social stability?
Are we going to see Anonimous against a legion or dark hackers swarming at each others.
What is social clash going to look like in the future?
Or I am a bit paranoia tonight? : )
I need to admit that I am instinctively using some of that to "punish" those who step out of the line, who don't attribute authorship for example, who don't respect the 10 commandments <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/the-ten-commandments-of-peer-production-and-commons-economics/2015/10/24>, I do that from my personal frustration and to preserve the network, and I learned how to do it in a way that generates peer pressure. All the past SENSORICA conflicts were solved in this way. essentially swarming the bad guy to the edges of the network, through peer pressure or by mass ignoring the person. It uses the reputation system, and there's a way to do it very effectively. Now, believe me, I am acting to preserve SENSORICA from sharks and freeloaders. It is still an art, but I feel that this can be very well formalized, which can become a formidable social weapon.
-- t!b! <http://www.google.com/profiles/tiberius.brastaviceanu> co-founder of SENSORICA <http://www.sensorica.co>, an open, decentralized and self-organizing value network (an open enterprise)
founder of Multitude Project <http://multitudeproject.blogspot.ca/>
Google Profile <https://plus.google.com/117593809719446924575/about> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000279944184> Twitter @TiberiusB <http://twitter.com/TiberiusB>
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 12:07 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Trebor has recently shifted to "platform cooperativism" and has an event in NYC coming up that Nicholas will be at.
I aim to stream this http://livestream.com/internetsociety/platformcoop but I'm not sure I'll catch every last track. There was an earlier precursor panel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0VE-Rk7rrA j -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast -------------------------------------------------------------- -
participants (3)
-
Joly MacFie -
Michel Bauwens -
olivier auber