Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Social Democracy or Revolutionary Democracy: Syriza and Us | The Bullet No. 1149
Peter, thank you so much for posting this article. I really resonate with what Michael Lebowitz is saying here. He says: Why is it that after so many defeats so many still cannot see what Marx grasped in the nineteenth century – that capital has the tendency to produce a working class which views the existence of capital as necessary? ‘The advance of capitalist production,’ he stressed, ‘develops a working class which by education, tradition and habit looks upon the requirements of this mode of production as self-evident natural laws.’ This is so true. Many radicals get frustrated that others can't see what they see. I have been there myself. Why do working class vote for Tories? Incomprehensible I thought. But according to Lebowitz (and Marx) it makes sense. And by mode of production lets understand hierarchical relationships, so that it includes ICT, and all patriarchal relationships based on power and money. Lebowitz again: It begins, in short, by grasping the ‘key link’ of human development and practice that Marx consistently stressed. Revolutionary democracy recognizes that every activity in which people engage forms them. (My emphasis) Thus, there are two products of every activity – the changing of circumstance or things and the human product. What's the significance of recognizing this process of producing people explicitly? First, it helps us to understand why changes must occur in all spheres – every moment that people act within old relations is a process of reproducing old ideas and attitudes. Working under hierarchical relations, functioning without the ability to make decisions in the workplace and society, focusing upon self-interest rather than upon solidarity within society – these activities produce people on a daily basis; it is the reproduction of the conservatism of everyday life. This is what I was trying to say in the discussion with you and Michel, we have to take into account where these forces converge in the individual because that is where the 'alternative logic' that Michel talks about, arises. But what I didn't see is that what gives rise to this 'alternative logic', is the possibility of different practice, different activity, what Leibowitz calls below 'new spaces in which people can develop their powers...' “Recognizing this second side also directs us to focus upon the introduction of concrete measures which explicitly take into account the effect of those measures upon human development. Thus, for every step two questions must be asked: (1) how does this change circumstances and (2) how does this help to produce revolutionary subjects and increase their capacities?”[5] Of course, it must struggle to capture the existing state from capital so that state can serve the needs of the working-class rather than capital. However, it also must “promote by all means possible new democratic institutions, new spaces in which people can develop their powers through their protagonism.” You questioned Lebowitz use of term working class. To me the 'working class', is all those who never actually have a chance to think outside the box, who are captured by the logic of capitalism to sell their labour in whatever form, or who accept inequality as a natural state of affairs. I know these terms are very imprecise but I find the hair splitting arguments between old timers a real waste. Lebowitz is really addressing the question you raised about the 'socio-cultural processes' needed to accomplish a politico-economic transition. I will write more when I have finished Lebowitz article which I am in process of reading and would heartily recommend http://monthlyreview.org/2014/03/01/proposing-path-socialism-two-papers-hugo... Excerpt: This is a society centred on a conscious exchange of activity for communal needs and communal purposes. It is a society of new, rich human beings who develop in the course of producing with others and for others; these are people for whom the desire to possess and the associated need for money (the real need that capitalism produces, Marx noted) wither away. We are describing a new world in which we have our individual needs, needs for our own “all-round development,” but where we are not driven by material incentives to act. It is a world in which our activity is its own reward (and is, indeed, “life’s prime want”) because we affirm ourselves as conscious social beings through that activity, a world in which we produce use-values for others and produce ourselves as part of the human family. How is this accomplished? Anna
On 2 Aug 2015, at 09:45, Peter Waterman <[email protected]> wrote:
http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/1149.php#continue _______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
Totally agree with what you are saying Anna, can only add instead of seeing 'producing working class' if one sees it as 'organizing' people, together with their ideas, identities, characters, cultures, daily doings, workings, living environment, as well as nature, one can see that solution lies in counter and emancipatory organizing of all those things form inner of selves, groups, families, nations, and world wide. It is not only imaginable, and possible but indeed urgently necessary, moreover happening all the time. Orsan
On 5 aug. 2015, at 20:13, [email protected] wrote:
Peter, thank you so much for posting this article. I really resonate with what Michael Lebowitz is saying here.
He says: Why is it that after so many defeats so many still cannot see what Marx grasped in the nineteenth century – that capital has the tendency to produce a working class which views the existence of capital as necessary? ‘The advance of capitalist production,’ he stressed, ‘develops a working class which by education, tradition and habit looks upon the requirements of this mode of production as self-evident natural laws.’
This is so true. Many radicals get frustrated that others can't see what they see. I have been there myself. Why do working class vote for Tories? Incomprehensible I thought. But according to Lebowitz (and Marx) it makes sense. And by mode of production lets understand hierarchical relationships, so that it includes ICT, and all patriarchal relationships based on power and money.
Lebowitz again: It begins, in short, by grasping the ‘key link’ of human development and practice that Marx consistently stressed. Revolutionary democracy recognizes that every activity in which people engage forms them. (My emphasis) Thus, there are two products of every activity – the changing of circumstance or things and the human product.
What's the significance of recognizing this process of producing people explicitly? First, it helps us to understand why changes must occur in all spheres – every moment that people act within old relations is a process of reproducing old ideas and attitudes. Working under hierarchical relations, functioning without the ability to make decisions in the workplace and society, focusing upon self-interest rather than upon solidarity within society – these activities produce people on a daily basis; it is the reproduction of the conservatism of everyday life.
This is what I was trying to say in the discussion with you and Michel, we have to take into account where these forces converge in the individual because that is where the 'alternative logic' that Michel talks about, arises. But what I didn't see is that what gives rise to this 'alternative logic', is the possibility of different practice, different activity, what Leibowitz calls below 'new spaces in which people can develop their powers...'
“Recognizing this second side also directs us to focus upon the introduction of concrete measures which explicitly take into account the effect of those measures upon human development. Thus, for every step two questions must be asked: (1) how does this change circumstances and (2) how does this help to produce revolutionary subjects and increase their capacities?”[5]
Of course, it must struggle to capture the existing state from capital so that state can serve the needs of the working-class rather than capital. However, it also must “promote by all means possible new democratic institutions, new spaces in which people can develop their powers through their protagonism.”
You questioned Lebowitz use of term working class. To me the 'working class', is all those who never actually have a chance to think outside the box, who are captured by the logic of capitalism to sell their labour in whatever form, or who accept inequality as a natural state of affairs. I know these terms are very imprecise but I find the hair splitting arguments between old timers a real waste. Lebowitz is really addressing the question you raised about the 'socio-cultural processes' needed to accomplish a politico-economic transition.
I will write more when I have finished Lebowitz article which I am in process of reading and would heartily recommend http://monthlyreview.org/2014/03/01/proposing-path-socialism-two-papers-hugo...
Excerpt: This is a society centred on a conscious exchange of activity for communal needs and communal purposes. It is a society of new, rich human beings who develop in the course of producing with others and for others; these are people for whom the desire to possess and the associated need for money (the real need that capitalism produces, Marx noted) wither away. We are describing a new world in which we have our individual needs, needs for our own “all-round development,” but where we are not driven by material incentives to act. It is a world in which our activity is its own reward (and is, indeed, “life’s prime want”) because we affirm ourselves as conscious social beings through that activity, a world in which we produce use-values for others and produce ourselves as part of the human family.
How is this accomplished?
Anna
On 2 Aug 2015, at 09:45, Peter Waterman <[email protected]> wrote:
http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/1149.php#continue _______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
very well put indeed, I read his book last november in greece, Michel On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:13 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Peter, thank you so much for posting this article. I really resonate with what Michael Lebowitz is saying here.
He says: *Why is it that after so many defeats so many still cannot see what Marx grasped in the nineteenth century – that capital has the tendency to produce a working class which views the existence of capital as necessary? ‘The advance of capitalist production,’ he stressed, ‘develops a working class which by education, tradition and habit looks upon the requirements of this mode of production as self-evident natural laws.’*
This is so true. Many radicals get frustrated that others can't see what they see. I have been there myself. Why do working class vote for Tories? Incomprehensible I thought. But according to Lebowitz (and Marx) it makes sense. And by mode of production lets understand hierarchical relationships, so that it includes ICT, and all patriarchal relationships based on power and money.
Lebowitz again: *It begins, in short, by grasping the ‘key link’ of human development and practice that Marx consistently stressed. Revolutionary democracy recognizes that **every activity in which people engage forms them.** (*My emphasis*) Thus, there are two products of every activity – the changing of circumstance or things and the human product.*
*What's the significance of recognizing this process of producing people explicitly? First, it helps us to understand why changes must occur in all spheres – every moment that people act within old relations is a process of reproducing old ideas and attitudes. Working under hierarchical relations, functioning without the ability to make decisions in the workplace and society, focusing upon self-interest rather than upon solidarity within society – these activities produce people on a daily basis; it is the reproduction of the conservatism of everyday life.*
This is what I was trying to say in the discussion with you and Michel, we have to take into account where these forces converge in the individual because that is where the 'alternative logic' that Michel talks about, arises. But what I didn't see is that what gives rise to this 'alternative logic', is the possibility of different practice, different activity, what Leibowitz calls below 'new spaces in which people can develop their powers...'
*“Recognizing this second side also directs us to focus upon the introduction of concrete measures which explicitly take into account the effect of those measures upon human development. Thus, for every step two questions must be asked: (1) how does this change circumstances and (2) how does this help to produce revolutionary subjects and increase their capacities?”[5]*
*Of course, it must struggle to capture the existing state from capital so that state can serve the needs of the working-class rather than capital. However, it also must “promote by all means possible new democratic institutions, new spaces in which people can develop their powers through their protagonism.” *
You questioned Lebowitz use of term working class. To me the 'working class', is all those who never actually have a chance to think outside the box, who are captured by the logic of capitalism to sell their labour in whatever form, or who accept inequality as a natural state of affairs. I know these terms are very imprecise but I find the hair splitting arguments between old timers a real waste. Lebowitz is really addressing the question you raised about the 'socio-cultural processes' needed to accomplish a politico-economic transition.
I will write more when I have finished Lebowitz article which I am in process of reading and would heartily recommend
http://monthlyreview.org/2014/03/01/proposing-path-socialism-two-papers-hugo...
Excerpt: *This is a society centred on a conscious exchange of activity for communal needs and communal purposes. It is a society of new, rich human beings who develop in the course of producing with others and for others; these are people for whom the desire to possess and the associated need for money (the real need that capitalism produces, Marx noted) wither away. We are describing a new world in which we have our individual needs, needs for our own “all-round development,” but where we are not driven by material incentives to act. It is a world in which our activity is its own reward (and is, indeed, “life’s prime want”) because we affirm ourselves as conscious social beings through that activity, a world in which we produce use-values for others and produce ourselves as part of the human family.*
How is this accomplished?
Anna
On 2 Aug 2015, at 09:45, Peter Waterman <[email protected]> wrote:
http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/1149.php#continue _______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
_______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
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replied below;
On 05 Aug 2015, at 20:13, [email protected] wrote:
Excerpt: This is a society centred on a conscious exchange of activity for communal needs and communal purposes. It is a society of new, rich human beings who develop in the course of producing with others and for others; these are people for whom the desire to possess and the associated need for money (the real need that capitalism produces, Marx noted) wither away. We are describing a new world in which we have our individual needs, needs for our own “all-round development,” but where we are not driven by material incentives to act. It is a world in which our activity is its own reward (and is, indeed, “life’s prime want”) because we affirm ourselves as conscious social beings through that activity, a world in which we produce use-values for others and produce ourselves as part of the human family.
How is this accomplished?
Syriza, Podemos, progressive local governments and civil forces as well as creative and productive communities need to join in constructing and building up commons productive, reproductive cultural and political transformatory spaces. Using local, national, regional, and global open spaces like WSF, commons events, mobilizations, connecting them directly to those who are perishing by crises, imperialist wars, and environmental catastrophes. Existing tools needs to be tried to get integrated in a mutually cooperative fashion through those spaces and mobilizations to each other. Decision making, communicator and practical solidarity mechanisms needs to be interconnected with conscious and pure efforts for the good of all. It is not at all difficult if perspective and collaborative learning and making processes and tools discussed and collectively organized all together, with all parties involved listening and positive towards each others, ready to change self and willing to help others. Core understanding and expectations of all parties needs to be open and shared, recognized mutually. So a time table, list of list and tools, map of maps of struggle can be brought to gather and peers would be put in touch with each other towards harmonizing efforts and contributions. Open value chain networks, wiki wikis, and meta document tools are crucial as well as real world gatherings, classes, circles linked to solidarity economies, open worker cooperatives. This is only a very small piece of thought but I believe important to starting from. Orsan
These are recommendations for a government that is attempting to develop a socialist society. This is not a process for global emancipation. But this does go someway, in my opinion, to respond to question raised about the role of the state. Lebowitz stresses that 'at all times' human beings are the hub, 'the subjects and products of their own activity.' This twofold dynamic necessitates social ownership of the means of production so that workers are in control of decision making to provide for communal needs, and which also serves their own development. In so far as the state takes an authoritarian role, or there is hierarchy which interferes with the possibility of worker control, it will undermine the growth of emancipated individuals, and reproduce old conservative patterns. Anna
On 9 Aug 2015, at 14:12, Orsan Senalp <[email protected]> wrote:
replied below;
On 05 Aug 2015, at 20:13, [email protected] wrote:
Excerpt: This is a society centred on a conscious exchange of activity for communal needs and communal purposes. It is a society of new, rich human beings who develop in the course of producing with others and for others; these are people for whom the desire to possess and the associated need for money (the real need that capitalism produces, Marx noted) wither away. We are describing a new world in which we have our individual needs, needs for our own “all-round development,” but where we are not driven by material incentives to act. It is a world in which our activity is its own reward (and is, indeed, “life’s prime want”) because we affirm ourselves as conscious social beings through that activity, a world in which we produce use-values for others and produce ourselves as part of the human family.
How is this accomplished?
Syriza, Podemos, progressive local governments and civil forces as well as creative and productive communities need to join in constructing and building up commons productive, reproductive cultural and political transformatory spaces. Using local, national, regional, and global open spaces like WSF, commons events, mobilizations, connecting them directly to those who are perishing by crises, imperialist wars, and environmental catastrophes. Existing tools needs to be tried to get integrated in a mutually cooperative fashion through those spaces and mobilizations to each other. Decision making, communicator and practical solidarity mechanisms needs to be interconnected with conscious and pure efforts for the good of all. It is not at all difficult if perspective and collaborative learning and making processes and tools discussed and collectively organized all together, with all parties involved listening and positive towards each others, ready to change self and willing to help others. Core understanding and expectations of all parties needs to be open and shared, recognized mutually.
So a time table, list of list and tools, map of maps of struggle can be brought to gather and peers would be put in touch with each other towards harmonizing efforts and contributions.
Open value chain networks, wiki wikis, and meta document tools are crucial as well as real world gatherings, classes, circles linked to solidarity economies, open worker cooperatives.
This is only a very small piece of thought but I believe important to starting from.
Orsan
Anna, yes sorry it appeared indeed as you say. But I replied Peter as drafts, of which i have had put somewhere more detailed lists and maps still needs to be organised ad shared. Will Work on it as soon as have some free time from 'work' and share on floss collaborative and prefigırative tools. What i meant was, Syriza, Podemos, ngos so on has to be responsive to and activity wiling to show sincere support, instead of trying to capture such projects and processes by adopting usual tactics, like hiring certain activists who needs income, by providing assignments and In return asking them to recruit movements assets for their predetermined program but instead they are to be pushed by grassroots to be genuinely being collaborative; this can be done through open p2p transformative communication using techno political means being developed and adopted. Like lists, pads, live tvs, libraries, networks, so on. This again still is only a very small part of thoughts and possibilities. Orsan
On 09 Aug 2015, at 17:00, [email protected] wrote:
These are recommendations for a government that is attempting to develop a socialist society. This is not a process for global emancipation. But this does go someway, in my opinion, to respond to question raised about the role of the state.
Lebowitz stresses that 'at all times' human beings are the hub, 'the subjects and products of their own activity.' This twofold dynamic necessitates social ownership of the means of production so that workers are in control of decision making to provide for communal needs, and which also serves their own development. In so far as the state takes an authoritarian role, or there is hierarchy which interferes with the possibility of worker control, it will undermine the growth of emancipated individuals, and reproduce old conservative patterns.
Anna
On 9 Aug 2015, at 14:12, Orsan Senalp <[email protected]> wrote:
replied below;
On 05 Aug 2015, at 20:13, [email protected] wrote:
Excerpt: This is a society centred on a conscious exchange of activity for communal needs and communal purposes. It is a society of new, rich human beings who develop in the course of producing with others and for others; these are people for whom the desire to possess and the associated need for money (the real need that capitalism produces, Marx noted) wither away. We are describing a new world in which we have our individual needs, needs for our own “all-round development,” but where we are not driven by material incentives to act. It is a world in which our activity is its own reward (and is, indeed, “life’s prime want”) because we affirm ourselves as conscious social beings through that activity, a world in which we produce use-values for others and produce ourselves as part of the human family.
How is this accomplished?
Syriza, Podemos, progressive local governments and civil forces as well as creative and productive communities need to join in constructing and building up commons productive, reproductive cultural and political transformatory spaces. Using local, national, regional, and global open spaces like WSF, commons events, mobilizations, connecting them directly to those who are perishing by crises, imperialist wars, and environmental catastrophes. Existing tools needs to be tried to get integrated in a mutually cooperative fashion through those spaces and mobilizations to each other. Decision making, communicator and practical solidarity mechanisms needs to be interconnected with conscious and pure efforts for the good of all. It is not at all difficult if perspective and collaborative learning and making processes and tools discussed and collectively organized all together, with all parties involved listening and positive towards each others, ready to change self and willing to help others. Core understanding and expectations of all parties needs to be open and shared, recognized mutually.
So a time table, list of list and tools, map of maps of struggle can be brought to gather and peers would be put in touch with each other towards harmonizing efforts and contributions.
Open value chain networks, wiki wikis, and meta document tools are crucial as well as real world gatherings, classes, circles linked to solidarity economies, open worker cooperatives.
This is only a very small piece of thought but I believe important to starting from.
Orsan
participants (4)
-
anna＠shsh.co.uk -
Michel Bauwens -
Orsan -
Orsan Senalp