Re: [P2P-F] The Open Factory - an Open Hardware factory in an Irish Ecovillage.
Dear Vinay, Have a look at this, I think this is an important contextualization for what you are doing: http://p2pfoundation.net/Commodity_Ecology I see Whitaker's work as an enlargement and deepening of the open source ecology project, which is a subcategory for the much larger transformation that is needed, and outlined in this ecology how is the relation of your project to OSE? mICHEL -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
Hi Michel, sorry it's taken me a while to get to this - the important stuff is often queued behind the urgent stuff in my life at the moment. re Commodity Ecology http://commodityecology.blogspot.com/ yes, I think there's a ton to this, although whether The List is that list of 90 items I don't know. Marcin's got a similar list implicit in his work, and I (of course) have the extremely abbreviated SCIM / Six Ways To Die model. I'd like to see ongoing work somewhere in the world on these kinds of maps at a rigorous academic level, Perhaps One Day. I'm (perhaps surprisingly) wary of having the Open Factory (or whatever it turns out to be like in the end) tied to OSE. There are three main issues. 1> We have several serious metal shops in the Cloughjordan area, so we're not planning on doing much metal bashing at the Open Factory - rather we'd take jobs out to these local shops 2> Replicating the OSE machines is Hard and we don't have the necessary concentration of talent, particularly to be early replicators. 3> My gut feeling is that we want an export-driven market for the Open Factory, at least initially, and shipping the machines around the world isn't the point - vs. say (dull, but doable) organic soaps and similar consumer goods. This represents a compromise, but it's an economically necessary one at the present time. In short: we don't have the balls to replicate the OSE work here. Yet. Could change in a year or two as our team deepens and the barrier to successful replication drops, at which point, yes, it's a natural, particularly if Ireland's in serious need of cheap farm equipment by then, which is entirely plausible in a wide range of scenarios... Vinay On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
Dear Vinay,
Have a look at this, I think this is an important contextualization for what you are doing: http://p2pfoundation.net/Commodity_Ecology
I see Whitaker's work as an enlargement and deepening of the open source ecology project, which is a subcategory for the much larger transformation that is needed, and outlined in this ecology
how is the relation of your project to OSE?
mICHEL
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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-- Vinay Gupta Free Science and Engineering in the Global Public Interest http://hexayurt.com - free/open next generation human sheltering http://hexayurt.com/plan - the whole systems, big picture vision "In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer" - Albert Camus Twitter/Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk/AIM: hexayurt UK Cell : +44 (0) 7500 895568 / USA VOIP (+1) 775-743-1851
Dear Vinay, thanks for these details, they make a lot of sense from the concrete situation you are in ... I don't understand your 3rd point though, where you say you want export, but not exporting the machines themselves? Michel On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project) < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Michel,
sorry it's taken me a while to get to this - the important stuff is often queued behind the urgent stuff in my life at the moment.
re Commodity Ecology http://commodityecology.blogspot.com/ yes, I think there's a ton to this, although whether The List is that list of 90 items I don't know. Marcin's got a similar list implicit in his work, and I (of course) have the extremely abbreviated SCIM / Six Ways To Die model. I'd like to see ongoing work somewhere in the world on these kinds of maps at a rigorous academic level, Perhaps One Day.
I'm (perhaps surprisingly) wary of having the Open Factory (or whatever it turns out to be like in the end) tied to OSE. There are three main issues.
1> We have several serious metal shops in the Cloughjordan area, so we're not planning on doing much metal bashing at the Open Factory - rather we'd take jobs out to these local shops
2> Replicating the OSE machines is Hard and we don't have the necessary concentration of talent, particularly to be early replicators.
3> My gut feeling is that we want an export-driven market for the Open Factory, at least initially, and shipping the machines around the world isn't the point - vs. say (dull, but doable) organic soaps and similar consumer goods. This represents a compromise, but it's an economically necessary one at the present time.
In short: we don't have the balls to replicate the OSE work here. Yet. Could change in a year or two as our team deepens and the barrier to successful replication drops, at which point, yes, it's a natural, particularly if Ireland's in serious need of cheap farm equipment by then, which is entirely plausible in a wide range of scenarios...
Vinay
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
Dear Vinay,
Have a look at this, I think this is an important contextualization for what you are doing: http://p2pfoundation.net/Commodity_Ecology
I see Whitaker's work as an enlargement and deepening of the open source ecology project, which is a subcategory for the much larger transformation that is needed, and outlined in this ecology
how is the relation of your project to OSE?
mICHEL
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- Vinay Gupta Free Science and Engineering in the Global Public Interest
http://hexayurt.com - free/open next generation human sheltering http://hexayurt.com/plan - the whole systems, big picture vision
"In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer" - Albert Camus
Twitter/Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk/AIM: hexayurt UK Cell : +44 (0) 7500 895568 / USA VOIP (+1) 775-743-1851
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
I believe he means products the machines can make. For example creating an open "Soap Making Machine" and selling bars of soap rather than the machine itself. It makes sense as more people want/need/will use a bar of soap then a machine that makes soap. Tim Butram http://www.worldsproject.org On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 5:24 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
Dear Vinay,
thanks for these details, they make a lot of sense from the concrete situation you are in ... I don't understand your 3rd point though, where you say you want export, but not exporting the machines themselves?
Michel
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project) < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Michel,
sorry it's taken me a while to get to this - the important stuff is often queued behind the urgent stuff in my life at the moment.
re Commodity Ecology http://commodityecology.blogspot.com/ yes, I think there's a ton to this, although whether The List is that list of 90 items I don't know. Marcin's got a similar list implicit in his work, and I (of course) have the extremely abbreviated SCIM / Six Ways To Die model. I'd like to see ongoing work somewhere in the world on these kinds of maps at a rigorous academic level, Perhaps One Day.
I'm (perhaps surprisingly) wary of having the Open Factory (or whatever it turns out to be like in the end) tied to OSE. There are three main issues.
1> We have several serious metal shops in the Cloughjordan area, so we're not planning on doing much metal bashing at the Open Factory - rather we'd take jobs out to these local shops
2> Replicating the OSE machines is Hard and we don't have the necessary concentration of talent, particularly to be early replicators.
3> My gut feeling is that we want an export-driven market for the Open Factory, at least initially, and shipping the machines around the world isn't the point - vs. say (dull, but doable) organic soaps and similar consumer goods. This represents a compromise, but it's an economically necessary one at the present time.
In short: we don't have the balls to replicate the OSE work here. Yet. Could change in a year or two as our team deepens and the barrier to successful replication drops, at which point, yes, it's a natural, particularly if Ireland's in serious need of cheap farm equipment by then, which is entirely plausible in a wide range of scenarios...
Vinay
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
Dear Vinay,
Have a look at this, I think this is an important contextualization for what you are doing: http://p2pfoundation.net/Commodity_Ecology
I see Whitaker's work as an enlargement and deepening of the open source ecology project, which is a subcategory for the much larger transformation that is needed, and outlined in this ecology
how is the relation of your project to OSE?
mICHEL
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- Vinay Gupta Free Science and Engineering in the Global Public Interest
http://hexayurt.com - free/open next generation human sheltering http://hexayurt.com/plan - the whole systems, big picture vision
"In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer" - Albert Camus
Twitter/Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk/AIM: hexayurt UK Cell : +44 (0) 7500 895568 / USA VOIP (+1) 775-743-1851
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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Atrus wrote:
It makes sense as more people want/need/will use a bar of soap then a machine that makes soap.
It is economically dangerous to allow users access to the Source of that which you intend to sell. It is true that many users will not or cannot setup, operate and maintain the Sources of Production. But when those unskilled users gain full access to those Sources (and ownership is the ultimate access), they can then hire anyone that happens to have those skills, causing competition between workers to approach maximum and wages to approach zero. Profit disappear in a puff of greasy smoke, since, though the unskilled users must pay all the costs of production, including wages to any workers, they cannot pay Profit because they do not buy the Product, but own it already as a side-effect of their owning the Sources. Manufacturing will be far closer to 'Open' when we begin helping users gain co-owership in the Sources of all the things they need. The Sources of food are self-replicating, solar-powered, manufacturing plants that we do not yet know how to co-own for our own, mutual, use-value benefit. The keys to operating in this GNU way are: 1. Organize users to pre-pay for the products they need. 2. Those investors become the co-owners of Physical Sources. 3. Skilled users can commit Work toward that production. 4. Unskilled users can commit Land or Capital. 5. The return for those investments is the product itself. 6. The product is not sold because it is already allocated to the persons who intend to *use* it. 7. In the special case of surplus, the product can be sold to 'outsiders' (users with insufficient ownership), and Profit should be charged against those latecomers, but some percentage of that Profit must be treated as though it were an investment from the user who paid it. 8. Treating profit as user investment causes those payers to slowly gain co-ownership in the Sources of Production as they become the proprietors of the growth they caused when they paid more than cost.
is this really what you are proposing Patrick?? i.e. "causing competition between workers to approach maximum and wages to approach zero" On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 12:04 AM, Patrick Anderson <[email protected]>wrote:
Atrus wrote:
It makes sense as more people want/need/will use a bar of soap then a machine that makes soap.
It is economically dangerous to allow users access to the Source of that which you intend to sell.
It is true that many users will not or cannot setup, operate and maintain the Sources of Production.
But when those unskilled users gain full access to those Sources (and ownership is the ultimate access), they can then hire anyone that happens to have those skills, causing competition between workers to approach maximum and wages to approach zero.
Profit disappear in a puff of greasy smoke, since, though the unskilled users must pay all the costs of production, including wages to any workers, they cannot pay Profit because they do not buy the Product, but own it already as a side-effect of their owning the Sources.
Manufacturing will be far closer to 'Open' when we begin helping users gain co-owership in the Sources of all the things they need.
The Sources of food are self-replicating, solar-powered, manufacturing plants that we do not yet know how to co-own for our own, mutual, use-value benefit.
The keys to operating in this GNU way are:
1. Organize users to pre-pay for the products they need.
2. Those investors become the co-owners of Physical Sources.
3. Skilled users can commit Work toward that production.
4. Unskilled users can commit Land or Capital.
5. The return for those investments is the product itself.
6. The product is not sold because it is already allocated to the persons who intend to *use* it.
7. In the special case of surplus, the product can be sold to 'outsiders' (users with insufficient ownership), and Profit should be charged against those latecomers, but some percentage of that Profit must be treated as though it were an investment from the user who paid it.
8. Treating profit as user investment causes those payers to slowly gain co-ownership in the Sources of Production as they become the proprietors of the growth they caused when they paid more than cost.
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Michel Bauwens wrote:
is this really what you are proposing Patrick??
i.e. "causing competition between workers to approach maximum and wages to approach zero"
I observe this occurs when users control Sources. This is why much Free Software work is done by developers that receive no wages, but receive the product itself as payment (scratch their own itch). We must decrease the prices of the things workers need as biological *INPUTS* instead of trying to increase the prices of the things do as artistic *OUTPUTS*. We are attacking the wrong side of the equation by trying to prop-up wages and profits. We must develop a system that can take advantage of this interesting result or we will forever be protecting scarcity in the name of abundance...
participants (4)
-
Atrus -
Michel Bauwens -
Patrick Anderson -
Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project)