crucial text on democracy and debt by Michael Hudson (everyone should read this)
http://michael-hudson.com/2011/12/democracy-and-debt/ (i only disagree with his analysis of the feudal ages, serfs were NOT indebted, and it was not a continuation of the undefeated roman oligarchy) Michel -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
+1 ''Debt has been the main dynamic driving these shifts – always with new twists and turns. It polarizes wealth to create a creditor class, whose oligarchic rule is ended as new leaders (“tyrants” to Aristotle) win popular support by cancelling the debts and redistributing property or taking its usufruct for the state.'' My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service. 2011/12/5 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
http://michael-hudson.com/2011/12/democracy-and-debt/
(i only disagree with his analysis of the feudal ages, serfs were NOT indebted, and it was not a continuation of the undefeated roman oligarchy)
Michel
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-- Sincerely yours, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
<My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service.> that's the basis of debt peonage / bondage is it not? On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis < [email protected]> wrote:
+1
''Debt has been the main dynamic driving these shifts – always with new twists and turns. It polarizes wealth to create a creditor class, whose oligarchic rule is ended as new leaders (“tyrants” to Aristotle) win popular support by cancelling the debts and redistributing property or taking its usufruct for the state.''
My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service.
2011/12/5 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
http://michael-hudson.com/2011/12/democracy-and-debt/
(i only disagree with his analysis of the feudal ages, serfs were NOT indebted, and it was not a continuation of the undefeated roman oligarchy)
Michel
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--
Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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I dont understand your question very well. If you are refering to the historical basis of debt bondage the article suggests that it is. I would search for the reasons that interest rates were created. Interest rates are like a kind of clothe. We have to understand that it is a clothe and not be misguided by the fashion of the era. If we removed interest rates from the economy, would we have stopped the unending cicle? This is as important today as ever before. 2011/12/6 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
<My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service.>
that's the basis of debt peonage / bondage is it not?
On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis < [email protected]> wrote:
+1
''Debt has been the main dynamic driving these shifts – always with new twists and turns. It polarizes wealth to create a creditor class, whose oligarchic rule is ended as new leaders (“tyrants” to Aristotle) win popular support by cancelling the debts and redistributing property or taking its usufruct for the state.''
My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service.
2011/12/5 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
http://michael-hudson.com/2011/12/democracy-and-debt/
(i only disagree with his analysis of the feudal ages, serfs were NOT indebted, and it was not a continuation of the undefeated roman oligarchy)
Michel
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--
Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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-- Sincerely yours, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
hi apostolis, my understanding is that compound interest is a primary cause (one of the) of infinite growth, but not the only one. Merely tacking monetary design would not change the other factors leading to infinite capital accumulation. Nevertheless, it's an important part of any mix of measures to contain the infinite growth dynamic, and in this context, a renewed drive for debt bondage, leading to the destruction of the welfare state model. Michel On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis < [email protected]> wrote:
I dont understand your question very well. If you are refering to the historical basis of debt bondage the article suggests that it is.
I would search for the reasons that interest rates were created. Interest rates are like a kind of clothe. We have to understand that it is a clothe and not be misguided by the fashion of the era.
If we removed interest rates from the economy, would we have stopped the unending cicle? This is as important today as ever before.
2011/12/6 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
<My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service.>
that's the basis of debt peonage / bondage is it not?
On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis < [email protected]> wrote:
+1
''Debt has been the main dynamic driving these shifts – always with new twists and turns. It polarizes wealth to create a creditor class, whose oligarchic rule is ended as new leaders (“tyrants” to Aristotle) win popular support by cancelling the debts and redistributing property or taking its usufruct for the state.''
My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service.
2011/12/5 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
http://michael-hudson.com/2011/12/democracy-and-debt/
(i only disagree with his analysis of the feudal ages, serfs were NOT indebted, and it was not a continuation of the undefeated roman oligarchy)
Michel
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
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--
Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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--
Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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Maybe when i finish my work I will convince you (and myself) that those factors are one and the same. :) 2011/12/7 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
hi apostolis,
my understanding is that compound interest is a primary cause (one of the) of infinite growth, but not the only one. Merely tacking monetary design would not change the other factors leading to infinite capital accumulation. Nevertheless, it's an important part of any mix of measures to contain the infinite growth dynamic, and in this context, a renewed drive for debt bondage, leading to the destruction of the welfare state model.
Michel
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis < [email protected]> wrote:
I dont understand your question very well. If you are refering to the historical basis of debt bondage the article suggests that it is.
I would search for the reasons that interest rates were created. Interest rates are like a kind of clothe. We have to understand that it is a clothe and not be misguided by the fashion of the era.
If we removed interest rates from the economy, would we have stopped the unending cicle? This is as important today as ever before.
2011/12/6 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
<My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service.>
that's the basis of debt peonage / bondage is it not?
On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis < [email protected]> wrote:
+1
''Debt has been the main dynamic driving these shifts – always with new twists and turns. It polarizes wealth to create a creditor class, whose oligarchic rule is ended as new leaders (“tyrants” to Aristotle) win popular support by cancelling the debts and redistributing property or taking its usufruct for the state.''
My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service.
2011/12/5 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
http://michael-hudson.com/2011/12/democracy-and-debt/
(i only disagree with his analysis of the feudal ages, serfs were NOT indebted, and it was not a continuation of the undefeated roman oligarchy)
Michel
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
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--
Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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--
Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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-- Sincerely yours, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
are you familiar with aqal integral methodology? interesting to see things from different perspectives at the same time, michel On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis < [email protected]> wrote:
Maybe when i finish my work I will convince you (and myself) that those factors are one and the same. :)
2011/12/7 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
hi apostolis,
my understanding is that compound interest is a primary cause (one of the) of infinite growth, but not the only one. Merely tacking monetary design would not change the other factors leading to infinite capital accumulation. Nevertheless, it's an important part of any mix of measures to contain the infinite growth dynamic, and in this context, a renewed drive for debt bondage, leading to the destruction of the welfare state model.
Michel
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis < [email protected]> wrote:
I dont understand your question very well. If you are refering to the historical basis of debt bondage the article suggests that it is.
I would search for the reasons that interest rates were created. Interest rates are like a kind of clothe. We have to understand that it is a clothe and not be misguided by the fashion of the era.
If we removed interest rates from the economy, would we have stopped the unending cicle? This is as important today as ever before.
2011/12/6 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
<My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service.>
that's the basis of debt peonage / bondage is it not?
On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis < [email protected]> wrote:
+1
''Debt has been the main dynamic driving these shifts – always with new twists and turns. It polarizes wealth to create a creditor class, whose oligarchic rule is ended as new leaders (“tyrants” to Aristotle) win popular support by cancelling the debts and redistributing property or taking its usufruct for the state.''
My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service.
2011/12/5 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
http://michael-hudson.com/2011/12/democracy-and-debt/
(i only disagree with his analysis of the feudal ages, serfs were NOT indebted, and it was not a continuation of the undefeated roman oligarchy)
Michel
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
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--
Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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--
Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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--
Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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participants (2)
-
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis -
Michel Bauwens