are you familiar with aqal integral methodology?<br><br>interesting to see things from different perspectives at the same time,<br><br>michel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:xekoukou@gmail.com">xekoukou@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Maybe when i finish my work I will convince you (and myself) that those factors are one and the same. :)<div>
<div></div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/12/7 Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">hi apostolis,<br><br>my understanding is that compound interest is a primary cause (one of the) of infinite growth, but not the only one. Merely tacking monetary design would not change the other factors leading to infinite capital accumulation. Nevertheless, it&#39;s an important part of any mix of measures to contain the infinite growth dynamic, and in this context, a renewed drive for debt bondage, leading to the destruction of the welfare state model.<span><font color="#888888"><br>


<br>Michel</font></span><div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:xekoukou@gmail.com" target="_blank">xekoukou@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
I dont understand your question very well. If you are refering to the historical basis of debt bondage the article suggests that it is.<div><br></div><div>I would search for the reasons that interest rates were created. Interest rates are like a kind of clothe. We have to understand that it is a clothe and not be misguided by the fashion of the era.</div>



<div><br></div><div>If we removed interest rates from the economy, would we have stopped the unending cicle? This is as important today as ever before.</div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/12/6 Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>&gt;</span><br>



<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><font color="#111111" face="&#39;Times New Roman&#39;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px;">&lt;My only concern is that he might consider debt
 as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in 
exchange for some product or service.</span></font>&gt;<br><br></div>that&#39;s the basis of debt peonage / bondage is it not?<div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:xekoukou@gmail.com" target="_blank">xekoukou@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>




<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">+1<div><br></div><div>&#39;&#39;<span style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17); font-family: &#39;Times New Roman&#39;; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Debt has been the main dynamic driving these shifts – always with new twists and turns. It polarizes wealth to create a creditor class, whose oligarchic rule is ended as new leaders (“tyrants” to Aristotle) win popular support by cancelling the debts and redistributing property or taking its usufruct for the state.&#39;&#39;</span></div>





<div><font color="#111111" face="&#39;Times New Roman&#39;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font color="#111111" face="&#39;Times New Roman&#39;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px;">My only concern is that he might consider debt as only the obligation to return money with interest in the future in exchange for some product or service.</span></font></div>





<div><font color="#111111" face="&#39;Times New Roman&#39;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font color="#111111" face="&#39;Times New Roman&#39;"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px;"><br>





</span></font></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/12/5 Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">




<div><div></div><div>
<a href="http://michael-hudson.com/2011/12/democracy-and-debt/" target="_blank">http://michael-hudson.com/2011/12/democracy-and-debt/</a><br><br>(i only disagree with his analysis of the feudal ages, serfs were NOT indebted, and it was not a continuation of the undefeated roman oligarchy)<span><font color="#888888"><br>






<br>Michel<br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>  - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>






<br>Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss: <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><div>






<br>Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>






</div><br>
</font></span><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
<a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;"><pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></pre>


<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Sincerely yours, </pre><pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre></span><br>
</font></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
<a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>  - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>




<br>Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss: <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><div>




<br>Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>




</div><br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
<a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;"><pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></pre>

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Sincerely yours, </pre><pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre></span><br>
</font></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
<a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>  - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>


<br>Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss: <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><div>


<br>Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>


</div><br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
<a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;"><pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></pre><pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
Sincerely yours, </pre><pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre></span><br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
<a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>  - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>
<br>Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss: <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><div>
<br>Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
</div><br>