From: Natalie Golovin Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:26 PM To: Karl Golovin Subject: Re: Info To the recent hate mails-not surprised. One mentioned-me-me-me & God. To him I say Hope you feel better after your rant. I’m agnostic heading towards atheism- but find the US system of govt a solid one. By writing Creator-and not a particular God-Human Rights were secured from political control. The system has been weakened and polluted. Things got complex and voters couldn’t keep up & control their reps. Every system must withstand generational transitions and with the free-flow of info on-line, I have hope we can clean things up. Sorry many of you have been brainwashed re Native & US History. Try 2 remember people live in their own times-if you can understand those implications. From: Karl Golovin Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 6:24 AM To: Natalie Golovin Subject: Re: Info 4/28/11, 720 E. MCKELLIPS RD., TEMPE, AZ 85281. Thanks Natalie. On Oct 20, 2011 9:15 AM, "Natalie Golovin" <[email protected]> wrote:
That wasn't a rant, but the closest I have come to an understanding of your white supremacy oriented view points that seem to express if not proudness, then certainly indifference to having riches based on the conquering of two continents and the consequent annihilation of 90% of the population, who just happened to be weaker. Naturally. And then gone on to wars in and against the rest of the world for total domination and recently even presidentially sanctioned the killing of one of its citizens without having been before a court. The hate is all yours. I am neither surprised, nor hateful, just feel sorry for you. On 21/10/11 01:27, Natalie Golovin wrote:
From: Natalie Golovin Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:26 PM To: Karl Golovin Subject: Re: Info
To the recent hate mails-not surprised. One mentioned-me-me-me& God. To him I say Hope you feel better after your rant. I’m agnostic heading towards atheism- but find the US system of govt a solid one. By writing Creator-and not a particular God-Human Rights were secured from political control. The system has been weakened and polluted. Things got complex and voters couldn’t keep up& control their reps. Every system must withstand generational transitions and with the free-flow of info on-line, I have hope we can clean things up. Sorry many of you have been brainwashed re Native& US History. Try 2 remember people live in their own times-if you can understand those implications.
From: Karl Golovin Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 6:24 AM To: Natalie Golovin Subject: Re: Info
4/28/11, 720 E. MCKELLIPS RD., TEMPE, AZ 85281. Thanks Natalie.
On Oct 20, 2011 9:15 AM, "Natalie Golovin"<[email protected]> wrote:
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
You have radically changed the subject. I greatly oppose Imperialism and all the nationally inspired wars. (I support Ron Paul) And indifference is not understanding and this has nothing whatever to do with white supremacy. I have more time in the evenings and will try to explain again later. There is a real lack of communication here. -----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 4:42 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info That wasn't a rant, but the closest I have come to an understanding of your white supremacy oriented view points that seem to express if not proudness, then certainly indifference to having riches based on the conquering of two continents and the consequent annihilation of 90% of the population, who just happened to be weaker. Naturally. And then gone on to wars in and against the rest of the world for total domination and recently even presidentially sanctioned the killing of one of its citizens without having been before a court. The hate is all yours. I am neither surprised, nor hateful, just feel sorry for you. On 21/10/11 01:27, Natalie Golovin wrote:
From: Natalie Golovin Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:26 PM To: Karl Golovin Subject: Re: Info
To the recent hate mails-not surprised. One mentioned-me-me-me& God. To him I say Hope you feel better after your rant. I’m agnostic heading towards atheism- but find the US system of govt a solid one. By writing Creator-and not a particular God-Human Rights were secured from political control. The system has been weakened and polluted. Things got complex and voters couldn’t keep up& control their reps. Every system must withstand generational transitions and with the free-flow of info on-line, I have hope we can clean things up. Sorry many of you have been brainwashed re Native& US History. Try 2 remember people live in their own times-if you can understand those implications.
From: Karl Golovin Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 6:24 AM To: Natalie Golovin Subject: Re: Info
4/28/11, 720 E. MCKELLIPS RD., TEMPE, AZ 85281. Thanks Natalie.
On Oct 20, 2011 9:15 AM, "Natalie Golovin"<[email protected]> wrote:
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds... _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French & Indian War) Spanish, French & English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic & political forces join hands. Please read "Mayflower" Nathaniel Philbrick &"Blood and Thunder" Hampton Sides. Both highly acclaimed good reads due to great writing that make them seem like fiction. Get some details in before you blast people with such a broad brush. The end result was a brutal conquest-but a lot happened along the way and the difference can be equated to Murder One vs Manslaughter-not a small difference. As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs & I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years & understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods. From: mp Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 4:42 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info That wasn't a rant, but the closest I have come to an understanding of your white supremacy oriented view points that seem to express if not proudness, then certainly indifference to having riches based on the conquering of two continents and the consequent annihilation of 90% of the population, who just happened to be weaker. Naturally. And then gone on to wars in and against the rest of the world for total domination and recently even presidentially sanctioned the killing of one of its citizens without having been before a court. The hate is all yours. I am neither surprised, nor hateful, just feel sorry for you. On 21/10/11 01:27, Natalie Golovin wrote:
From: Natalie Golovin Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:26 PM To: Karl Golovin Subject: Re: Info
To the recent hate mails-not surprised. One mentioned-me-me-me& God. To him I say Hope you feel better after your rant. I’m agnostic heading towards atheism- but find the US system of govt a solid one. By writing Creator-and not a particular God-Human Rights were secured from political control. The system has been weakened and polluted. Things got complex and voters couldn’t keep up& control their reps. Every system must withstand generational transitions and with the free-flow of info on-line, I have hope we can clean things up. Sorry many of you have been brainwashed re Native& US History. Try 2 remember people live in their own times-if you can understand those implications.
From: Karl Golovin Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 6:24 AM To: Natalie Golovin Subject: Re: Info
4/28/11, 720 E. MCKELLIPS RD., TEMPE, AZ 85281. Thanks Natalie.
On Oct 20, 2011 9:15 AM, "Natalie Golovin"<[email protected]> wrote:
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds... _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French & Indian War) Spanish, French & English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic & political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs & I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years & understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business. -- Kevin Carson Research Associate, Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Desktop Regulatory State: The Countervailing Power of Super-Empowered Individuals http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
Agreed-that was easy. -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French & Indian War) Spanish, French & English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic & political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs & I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years & understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business. -- Kevin Carson Research Associate, Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Desktop Regulatory State: The Countervailing Power of Super-Empowered Individuals http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
small-pox blankets? On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open? On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ -----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open? On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds... _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Hi Nalatie, I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression. Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tr*ibuta*ry systems, the farmers were usually kept in place. Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression. Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions. Michel On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ
-----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open?
On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some point. This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I’m very interested in P2P posts re new currencies and social/political organization and I’m sorry I popped in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I’ve been reading voraciously both in the academic and personal venues for approx 50 years, so I’m guessing you guessed wrong. Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge’s post on OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand social & certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a large center overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join forces? From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info Hi Nalatie, I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression. Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tributary systems, the farmers were usually kept in place. Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression. Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions. Michel On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ -----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open? On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds... _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
hi Natalie, concerning the ows / tea party post, I think there is a strong residual distrust and opposition between people on the left and what the perceive as a dangerous plutocratic movement that is very related in social dynamics with fascism (declining middle classes blaming those even more below them). Some of this may be overcome through real-life dialogue. At #ows, there are people who say they are sympathetic to the Tea Party at the core of the occupation, such as Devin, but also many more Tea Partiers angrily denouncing the occupation as a communist plot ... in general, Tea Party identified republicans are totally opposed to what ows stands for ... though I'm guessing that with people like ron paul, agreement may be possible on very closely defined issues ... Michel On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some point. This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I’m very interested in P2P posts re new currencies and social/political organization and I’m sorry I popped in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I’ve been reading voraciously both in the academic and personal venues for approx 50 years, so I’m guessing you guessed wrong. Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge’s post on OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand social & certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a large center overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join forces?
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
Hi Nalatie,
I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression.
Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tr*ibuta*ry systems, the farmers were usually kept in place.
Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ
-----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open?
On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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Of course there’s distrust and media compounds it. And that’s what I suggested-closely defined (but very significant) issues. There’s a huge opportunity here and now, while both groups stay self-contained in their fantasies of utopia. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:49 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info hi Natalie, concerning the ows / tea party post, I think there is a strong residual distrust and opposition between people on the left and what the perceive as a dangerous plutocratic movement that is very related in social dynamics with fascism (declining middle classes blaming those even more below them). Some of this may be overcome through real-life dialogue. At #ows, there are people who say they are sympathetic to the Tea Party at the core of the occupation, such as Devin, but also many more Tea Partiers angrily denouncing the occupation as a communist plot ... in general, Tea Party identified republicans are totally opposed to what ows stands for ... though I'm guessing that with people like ron paul, agreement may be possible on very closely defined issues ... Michel On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some point. This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I’m very interested in P2P posts re new currencies and social/political organization and I’m sorry I popped in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I’ve been reading voraciously both in the academic and personal venues for approx 50 years, so I’m guessing you guessed wrong. Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge’s post on OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand social & certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a large center overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join forces? From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info Hi Nalatie, I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression. Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tributary systems, the farmers were usually kept in place. Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression. Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions. Michel On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ -----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open? On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote: > Agreed-that was easy. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Carson > Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM > To: P2P Foundation mailing list > Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> > wrote: >> Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of >> interplay >> among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup >> religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical >> knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. >> I >> already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The >> interactions >> were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big >> exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants >> interacted >> very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about >> when economic& political forces join hands. > > Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead > vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. > What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property > of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, > wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to > homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need > (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical > exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually > amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- > I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using > vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native > citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican > national might like to move onto. > >> As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard >> Left >> friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about >> school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls >> value >> family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's >> fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& >> understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods. > > I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone > would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls > like that into having abortions against their own judgment or > inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the > world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day > and minded their own goddamned business. > -- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds... _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
thanks .. by the way, where do you live? in the Berkeley now, Michel On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
Of course there’s distrust and media compounds it. And that’s what I suggested-closely defined (but very significant) issues. There’s a huge opportunity here and now, while both groups stay self-contained in their fantasies of utopia.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:49 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
hi Natalie,
concerning the ows / tea party post,
I think there is a strong residual distrust and opposition between people on the left and what the perceive as a dangerous plutocratic movement that is very related in social dynamics with fascism (declining middle classes blaming those even more below them). Some of this may be overcome through real-life dialogue.
At #ows, there are people who say they are sympathetic to the Tea Party at the core of the occupation, such as Devin, but also many more Tea Partiers angrily denouncing the occupation as a communist plot ... in general, Tea Party identified republicans are totally opposed to what ows stands for ... though I'm guessing that with people like ron paul, agreement may be possible on very closely defined issues ...
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some point. This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I’m very interested in P2P posts re new currencies and social/political organization and I’m sorry I popped in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I’ve been reading voraciously both in the academic and personal venues for approx 50 years, so I’m guessing you guessed wrong. Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge’s post on OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand social & certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a large center overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join forces?
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
Hi Nalatie,
I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression.
Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tr*ibuta*ry systems, the farmers were usually kept in place.
Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ
-----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open?
On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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Michel I REALLY recommend this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uz5RxhahHK0 in which Chris Hedges explains why the tea partiers are the new american FASCISTs./ They will be happy to be the goon squads for the interests of the corporatists also take a look at http://exiledonline.com/exposing-the-familiar-rightwing-pr-machine-is-cnbcs-... http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/04/17/chomsky-on-tea-party-dark-clouds-of-... It would be a catstrophy to "join forces" the american public at this point is not too sophisticated this one commonality you speak of could cause all the other DIFFERENCES that are far more important than the commonality. They should not get muddied. Here is another interesting discovery i made http://exiledonline.com/atlas-shrieked-why-ayn-rands-right-wing-followers-ar... On Oct 23, 2011, at 12:49 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
hi Natalie,
concerning the ows / tea party post,
I think there is a strong residual distrust and opposition between people on the left and what the perceive as a dangerous plutocratic movement that is very related in social dynamics with fascism (declining middle classes blaming those even more below them). Some of this may be overcome through real-life dialogue.
At #ows, there are people who say they are sympathetic to the Tea Party at the core of the occupation, such as Devin, but also many more Tea Partiers angrily denouncing the occupation as a communist plot ... in general, Tea Party identified republicans are totally opposed to what ows stands for ... though I'm guessing that with people like ron paul, agreement may be possible on very closely defined issues ...
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some point. This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I’m very interested in P2P posts re new currencies and social/political organization and I’m sorry I popped in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I’ve been reading voraciously both in the academic and personal venues for approx 50 years, so I’m guessing you guessed wrong. Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge’s post on OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand social & certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a large center overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join forces?
From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
Hi Nalatie,
I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression.
Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tributary systems, the farmers were usually kept in place.
Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ
-----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open?
On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
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Gordon-There are many diverse groups of people living in the US that distrust-even hate each other.Are you saying that armed conflict is unavoidable. The Tea Partiers aren’t all the same just as OWS has factions. All the extremists are coming out now to prevent any agreement on anything. From: Gordon Cook Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 1:32 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info Michel I REALLY recommend this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uz5RxhahHK0 in which Chris Hedges explains why the tea partiers are the new american FASCISTs./ They will be happy to be the goon squads for the interests of the corporatists also take a look at http://exiledonline.com/exposing-the-familiar-rightwing-pr-machine-is-cnbcs-... http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/04/17/chomsky-on-tea-party-dark-clouds-of-... It would be a catstrophy to "join forces" the american public at this point is not too sophisticated this one commonality you speak of could cause all the other DIFFERENCES that are far more important than the commonality. They should not get muddied. Here is another interesting discovery i made http://exiledonline.com/atlas-shrieked-why-ayn-rands-right-wing-followers-ar... On Oct 23, 2011, at 12:49 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote: hi Natalie, concerning the ows / tea party post, I think there is a strong residual distrust and opposition between people on the left and what the perceive as a dangerous plutocratic movement that is very related in social dynamics with fascism (declining middle classes blaming those even more below them). Some of this may be overcome through real-life dialogue. At #ows, there are people who say they are sympathetic to the Tea Party at the core of the occupation, such as Devin, but also many more Tea Partiers angrily denouncing the occupation as a communist plot ... in general, Tea Party identified republicans are totally opposed to what ows stands for ... though I'm guessing that with people like ron paul, agreement may be possible on very closely defined issues ... Michel On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some point. This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I’m very interested in P2P posts re new currencies and social/political organization and I’m sorry I popped in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I’ve been reading voraciously both in the academic and personal venues for approx 50 years, so I’m guessing you guessed wrong. Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge’s post on OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand social & certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a large center overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join forces? From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info Hi Nalatie, I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression. Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tributary systems, the farmers were usually kept in place. Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression. Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions. Michel On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ -----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open? On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote: > Agreed-that was easy. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Carson > Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM > To: P2P Foundation mailing list > Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> > wrote: >> Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of >> interplay >> among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup >> religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical >> knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. >> I >> already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The >> interactions >> were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big >> exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants >> interacted >> very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about >> when economic& political forces join hands. > > Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead > vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. > What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property > of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, > wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to > homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need > (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical > exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually > amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- > I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using > vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native > citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican > national might like to move onto. > >> As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard >> Left >> friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about >> school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls >> value >> family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's >> fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& >> understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods. > > I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone > would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls > like that into having abortions against their own judgment or > inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the > world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day > and minded their own goddamned business. > -- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds... _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
I think there is a matter of semantics ... Natalie seems to refer to ron paul supporters, and while we may disagree, they are not the same as what other people understand under Tea Parties ... in my opinion, to retain that moniker, and thus inviting to be equated with the real dangerous plutocratic and fascist forces, is a r*eal mistake, ralph nader did succeed in having some common ground with ron paul, and he would not work with fascists ... Michel * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:37 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
Gordon-There are many diverse groups of people living in the US that distrust-even hate each other.Are you saying that armed conflict is unavoidable. The Tea Partiers aren’t all the same just as OWS has factions. All the extremists are coming out now to prevent any agreement on anything.
*From:* Gordon Cook <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2011 1:32 PM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
Michel
I REALLY recommend this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uz5RxhahHK0
in which Chris Hedges explains why the tea partiers are the new american FASCISTs./ They will be happy to be the goon squads for the interests of the corporatists
also take a look at http://exiledonline.com/exposing-the-familiar-rightwing-pr-machine-is-cnbcs-...
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/04/17/chomsky-on-tea-party-dark-clouds-of-...
It would be a catstrophy to "join forces"
the american public at this point is not too sophisticated this one commonality you speak of could cause all the other DIFFERENCES that are far more important than the commonality. They should not get muddied.
Here is another interesting discovery i made
http://exiledonline.com/atlas-shrieked-why-ayn-rands-right-wing-followers-ar...
On Oct 23, 2011, at 12:49 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
hi Natalie,
concerning the ows / tea party post,
I think there is a strong residual distrust and opposition between people on the left and what the perceive as a dangerous plutocratic movement that is very related in social dynamics with fascism (declining middle classes blaming those even more below them). Some of this may be overcome through real-life dialogue.
At #ows, there are people who say they are sympathetic to the Tea Party at the core of the occupation, such as Devin, but also many more Tea Partiers angrily denouncing the occupation as a communist plot ... in general, Tea Party identified republicans are totally opposed to what ows stands for ... though I'm guessing that with people like ron paul, agreement may be possible on very closely defined issues ...
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some point. This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I’m very interested in P2P posts re new currencies and social/political organization and I’m sorry I popped in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I’ve been reading voraciously both in the academic and personal venues for approx 50 years, so I’m guessing you guessed wrong. Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge’s post on OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand social & certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a large center overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join forces?
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
Hi Nalatie,
I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression.
Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tr*ibuta*ry systems, the farmers were usually kept in place.
Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ
-----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open?
On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
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One of the more eye opening passages I have read related to corporatism was by Stanley Diamond, a Marxist sort of anthropologist, as the epilogue to his book "In Search of the Primitive." His insight is/was that we commonly have to negotiate the world between a mainstream sort of fascism against an alternative form of conformity. Both share strong similarities as to how authority and leadership are defined and identified. His overall point is that we are culturally oscillating between conventional corporatism and alternative forms of corporatism. It explained a great deal for me about the difficulties of advocating for change through practice, and ending up as another reproduction of alienation. Cooperatives that lack an authentic culture of cooperation tend to have difficulties when it comes to practice. Tadit On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:09:16 -0400, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
I think there is a matter of semantics ... Natalie seems to refer to ron paul supporters, and while we may disagree, they are not the same as what other people understand under Tea Parties ... in my opinion, to retain that moniker, and thus inviting to be equated with the real dangerous plutocratic and fascist forces, is a r*eal mistake,
ralph nader did succeed in having some common ground with ron paul, and he would not work with fascists ...
Michel * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:37 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
Gordon-There are many diverse groups of people living in the US that distrust-even hate each other.Are you saying that armed conflict is unavoidable. The Tea Partiers aren’t all the same just as OWS has factions. All the extremists are coming out now to prevent any agreement on anything.
*From:* Gordon Cook <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2011 1:32 PM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
Michel
I REALLY recommend this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uz5RxhahHK0
in which Chris Hedges explains why the tea partiers are the new american FASCISTs./ They will be happy to be the goon squads for the interests of the corporatists
also take a look at http://exiledonline.com/exposing-the-familiar-rightwing-pr-machine-is-cnbcs-...
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/04/17/chomsky-on-tea-party-dark-clouds-of-...
It would be a catstrophy to "join forces"
the american public at this point is not too sophisticated this one commonality you speak of could cause all the other DIFFERENCES that are far more important than the commonality. They should not get muddied.
Here is another interesting discovery i made
http://exiledonline.com/atlas-shrieked-why-ayn-rands-right-wing-followers-ar...
On Oct 23, 2011, at 12:49 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
hi Natalie,
concerning the ows / tea party post,
I think there is a strong residual distrust and opposition between people on the left and what the perceive as a dangerous plutocratic movement that is very related in social dynamics with fascism (declining middle classes blaming those even more below them). Some of this may be overcome through real-life dialogue.
At #ows, there are people who say they are sympathetic to the Tea Party at the core of the occupation, such as Devin, but also many more Tea Partiers angrily denouncing the occupation as a communist plot ... in general, Tea Party identified republicans are totally opposed to what ows stands for ... though I'm guessing that with people like ron paul, agreement may be possible on very closely defined issues ...
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some point. This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I’m very interested in P2P posts re new currencies and social/political organization and I’m sorry I popped in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I’ve been reading voraciously both in the academic and personal venues for approx 50 years, so I’m guessing you guessed wrong. Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge’s post on OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand social & certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a large center overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join forces?
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
Hi Nalatie,
I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression.
Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tr*ibuta*ry systems, the farmers were usually kept in place.
Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ
-----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open?
On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
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On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other.
Whoa. You should really stop talking. You have NO idea what you're talking about. How about forced acculturation, not allowing them to speak their own language (which hold the record of their own history), confined them under threat of violent force into reservations, among other things. But, really, that's probably not even the worst of it -- the worst of it is that for reasons they couldn't ever understand is why you were doing all of these cruel things when they were willing to share it it all with you. Why, when they handed out their hand to be friends, you chopped it off. Remember, they're the ones who gave us Thanksgiving which is still "celebrated" in this nation today. Read the reports made of making first contact with the Native peoples here. You really should read up before propagating the attitudes of conquest. Sorry.... marcos
... how do preliminary notions of the "vacant" inevitably lead to violent territorial conquest? http://www.bbrace.net/screen-names.html /:b
participants (8)
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Gordon Cook -
ideasinc＠ee.net -
Kevin Carson -
Mark Janssen -
Michel Bauwens -
mp -
Natalie Golovin -
{ brad brace }