A typical calculation for me on very fast internet connection projects that I would generate 50 bitcoins in over 800+ days see for instance http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php So, I conclude a faster way to get them is to earn them. On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 11:00 PM, fran ilich <[email protected]> wrote:

i also use bitcoin.... but i never seem to make anything even if i leave my computer going on for days in a row. and blocks are made on after the other. what am i doing wrong?

On Jan 16, 2011, at 8:44 PM, Samuel Rose wrote:

...

Cyclonite, personally I am ready to work with bitcoin today, although the rest of p2pf may not be, which I'll respe

_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan

Although I have misgivings about the stability of bitcoin, I support its use. (It's the only thing out there that is completely de-linked from official currencies and from things like precious metals, that is workable for more than just local exchange). To explain my perplexity on bitcoin stability, I quote from the site cyclonite linked: "How much is a Bitcoin worth? More all the time... As you can see, over a 4 week period, recently... The value of ฿1.00 BTC (one Bitcoin), went from US$0.06 to US$0.50 ...within only about 4 weeks. Yes... That was an 833% increase in it's value. Wow." (http://www.bitcoinme.com/) For me, a currency that is to be widely used, should be stable. Stable means it doesn't go down in value, but it also doesn't go up in value excessively. It should be roughly keeping its value. Going up as much as bitcoin evidently does, is a form of instability that will bring disturbance to a marketplace using bitcoin as its means of exchange. This instability could and should be remedied by adjusting the target total of bitcoin creation with an algorithm that takes into account the number of active bitcoin users. As the number of users increases, the total target amount of bitcoins to be created (which currently is fixed at 21,000,000) should increase, slowly creeping up to accomodate the demand of new users for bitcoins, in a way to keep the value of one single coin roughly stable. I do not know whether the creators of bitcoin would be willing to do this. For me, such an adjustment will be necessary to take bitcoin from experimental status to widely-used alternative means of payment status. Kind regards Sepp On Jan 17, 2011, at 4:44 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:

Cyclonite, personally I am ready to work with bitcoin today, although the rest of p2pf may not be, which I'll respect

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Cyclonite <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Guys,

I think there is some kind of misunderstanding here, you do not need to manually generate any kind of public/private keys as with OpenPGP.

You can even sign up in a website as mybitcoin.com and start making or receiving donations.

In my opinion the best available info for beginners is http://bitcoinme.com. Please take a look and you will get your doubts clear.

Best regards, Cyclonite. -- Secure Email contact: https://privacybox.de/cyclonite.msg Bitcoin donations jar: 16FVZweaaJLvhAy91oDugqaf84kXiDJ9PG

-------- Original Message -------- From: Samuel Rose <[email protected]> To: james burke <[email protected]> Cc: Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>, [email protected], p2p-foundation <[email protected]>, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]>, Georg Pleger <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Bitcoin donation Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:30:23 -0500

...

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:54 AM, james burke <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Michel, Yes, I do have a public key, but yet again, another nice idea with terrible interaction design and userbility - most people have no clue about public private keys, so this keeps it a geek thing

I agree, although as far as I can see, the application at least takes care of this for the user. Still, your point is valid in that some people may not understand what is happening.

Most of the users of bitcoin now are early adopters, however. So, if p2pf did support donation via bitcoin, it would be joining an ecology of early adopters, and would likely only receive donation from those early adopters.

...

- the actual app upon launch is unclear. Where to click, what to do,gah!

I can't really support this even if it is a p2p solution. James

Seems reasonable. If p2pf changes it's mind, I'm willing to participate in any experiments with bitcoin

...

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:

...

James,

do you have a public key?

Michel

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:

...

This is a p2p application, so we would need to post your's or James's public key, and people who want to donate bitcoins would need then send you the bitcoins by downloading the bitcoin application and sending it to you

quote:

"Bitcoin utilizes public/private key digital signatures (ECDSA). A coin has its owner's public key on it. When a coin is transferred from user A to user B, A adds B’s public key to the coin and signs it with his own private key. Now B owns the coin and can transfer it further. To prevent A from transferring the already used coin to another user C, a public list of all the previous transactions is collectively maintained by the network of Bitcoin nodes, and before each transaction the coin’s unusedness will be checked."

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: > Sam, can you help us install it on the wiki and blog? > > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >> I've downloaded and installed and am game to try with p2pf network >> folks. >> >> This could actually be really useful for lots of local economy efforts >> too. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Michel Bauwens >> <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> Dear, >>> >>> thanks a lot for this email, >>> >>> it seems that it is worthwhile for us to experiment with this, but I >>> will >>> forward this to James Burke for possible implementation >>> >>> James, I think we should do this, what do you think? >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:42 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>> Hash: SHA1 >>>> >>>> Dear friends, >>>> >>>> I have been looking in your site for any reference to Bitcoin for >>>> making a >>>> small donation. >>>> >>>> As you probably know, Bitcoin (bitcoin.org) is a new kind >>>> of a >>>> P2P >>>> crypto-currency in which the general public can make donations, >>>> macro >>>> or >>>> micropayments in a secure and anonymous way usually >>>> without >>>> any >>>> transaction fee involved. >>>> >>>> You can change Bitcoins for real money (eg: https://mtgox.com) or >>>> purchase >>>> services or goods in an increasing number of sites. >>>> >>>> In order to receive donations you only have to publish one >>>> of >>>> your >>>> accounts as generated by the bitcoin client or any specialized >>>> bitcoin >>>> trader (eg: mybitcoin.com). >>>> >>>> Currently some projects as www.i2p2.de, >>>> www.torrentservers.net >>>> and >>>> organizations like the EFF are accepting donations. >>>> >>>> In my opinion this kind of decentralized solution without the >>>> need >>>> to >>>> trust any middlemen is much better than Paypal, Visa or >>>> Mastercard >>>> for >>>> security-minded people as most of your donors are. >>>> >>>> If you are interested in pushing Bitcoin forward, do not >>>> hesitate >>>> to >>>> contact me if you have any doubt. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Cyclonite

there are still basic aspects of bitcoin I don't understand how can a self-invented coin have any value at all, who determines that value? what makes people accept that it has the value it says which bank is willing to give me other types of money in exchange for that value? On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Although I have misgivings about the stability of bitcoin, I support its use. (It's the only thing out there that is completely de-linked from official currencies and from things like precious metals, that is workable for more than just local exchange). To explain my perplexity on bitcoin stability, I quote from the site cyclonite linked: "How much is a Bitcoin worth?

More all the time...

As you can see, over a 4 week period, recently...

The value of ฿1.00 BTC (one Bitcoin), went from US$0.06 to US$0.50 ...within only about 4 weeks. Yes... That was an 833% increase in it's value. Wow." (http://www.bitcoinme.com/) For me, a currency that is to be widely used, should be stable. Stable means it doesn't go down in value, but it also doesn't go up in value excessively. It should be roughly keeping its value. Going up as much as bitcoin evidently does, is a form of instability that will bring disturbance to a marketplace using bitcoin as its means of exchange.

bitcoin does seem to have stabilized after that initial jump. I think the initial jump was due to the network effect of how fast the current group of adopters jumped on board and started using bitcoin.

Still, this is a of course a valid point. Although, the value increase seems to have been mostly beneficial to the early adopters. But, I could see how if the system stabilized, then a new wave of adopters jumped on board, it could suddenly become very unbalanced for the initial participants if various scenarios unfold.

Although, I am not sure *if* the bitcoin system would automatically inflate in an exponential way each time a new wave of participants joins the system.

One real potential problem is making sure that "honest nodes" control the majority of CPU power. So far, so good. It won't be easy for anyone to spoof this system. But, if a group of people wants to intentionally attack the system, there could be problems. Bitcoin is a good candidate for complex systems models as a means to put more foresight into stability, health, etc

...

This instability could and should be remedied by adjusting the target total of bitcoin creation with an algorithm that takes into account the number of active bitcoin users. As the number of users increases, the total target amount of bitcoins to be created (which currently is fixed at 21,000,000) should increase, slowly creeping up to accomodate the demand of new users for bitcoins, in a way to keep the value of one single coin roughly stable. I do not know whether the creators of bitcoin would be willing to do this. For me, such an adjustment will be necessary to take bitcoin from experimental status to widely-used alternative means of payment status.

Sepp, this is a great point.

One of the nice things about bitcoin is that it is F/LOSS, so it is ultimately fork-able. If bad decisions are made about the growth, the project could be forked, a different governance scheme could be implemented, etc.

I don't yet know enough about bitcoin to be 100% sure, but the system at least for the time being does seem to have stabilized (it could simply mean that participation has stabilized).

Bit coin claims:

"Once a predetermined number of coins have entered circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees and be completely inflation free."

And yes Michel, I will post this on the blog and in wiki :)

...

Kind regards Sepp

On Jan 17, 2011, at 4:44 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:

Cyclonite, personally I am ready to work with bitcoin today, although the rest of p2pf may not be, which I'll respect

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Cyclonite <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Guys,

I think there is some kind of misunderstanding here, you do not need to manually generate any kind of public/private keys as with OpenPGP.

You can even sign up in a website as mybitcoin.com and start making or receiving donations.

In my opinion the best available info for beginners is http://bitcoinme.com. Please take a look and you will get your doubts clear.

Best regards,

Cyclonite.

--

Secure Email contact: https://privacybox.de/cyclonite.msg

Bitcoin donations jar: 16FVZweaaJLvhAy91oDugqaf84kXiDJ9PG

-------- Original Message --------

From: Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

To: james burke <[email protected]>

Cc: Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>, [email protected], p2p-foundation <[email protected]>, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]>, Georg Pleger <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Bitcoin donation

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:30:23 -0500

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:54 AM, james burke <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Michel,

Yes, I do have a public key, but yet again,

another nice idea with terrible interaction design and userbility

- most people have no clue about public private keys, so this keeps it a

geek thing

I agree, although as far as I can see, the application at least takes

care of this for the user. Still, your point is valid in that some

people may not understand what is happening.

Most of the users of bitcoin now are early adopters, however. So, if

p2pf did support donation via bitcoin, it would be joining an ecology

of early adopters, and would likely only receive donation from those

early adopters.

- the actual app upon launch is unclear. Where to click, what to do,gah!

I can't really support this even if it is a p2p solution.

James

Seems reasonable. If p2pf changes it's mind, I'm willing to

participate in any experiments with bitcoin

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]

wrote:

James,

do you have a public key?

Michel

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

wrote:

This is a p2p application, so we would need to post your's or James's

public key, and people who want to donate bitcoins would need then

send you the bitcoins by downloading the bitcoin application and

sending it to you

quote:

"Bitcoin utilizes public/private key digital signatures (ECDSA). A

coin has its owner's public key on it. When a coin is transferred from

user A to user B, A adds B’s public key to the coin and signs it with

his own private key. Now B owns the coin and can transfer it further.

To prevent A from transferring the already used coin to another user

C, a public list of all the previous transactions is collectively

maintained by the network of Bitcoin nodes, and before each

transaction the coin’s unusedness will be checked."

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Michel Bauwens

<[email protected]> wrote:

Sam, can you help us install it on the wiki and blog?

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

wrote:

I've downloaded and installed and am game to try with p2pf network

folks.

This could actually be really useful for lots of local economy efforts

too.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Michel Bauwens

<[email protected]>

wrote:

Dear,

thanks a lot for this email,

it seems that it is worthwhile for us to experiment with this, but I

will

forward this to James Burke for possible implementation

James, I think we should do this, what do you think?

Michel

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:42 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1

Dear friends,

I have been looking in your site for any reference to Bitcoin for

making a

small donation.

As you probably know, Bitcoin (bitcoin.org) is a new kind

of a

P2P

crypto-currency in which the general public can make donations,

macro

or

micropayments in a secure and anonymous way usually

without

any

transaction fee involved.

You can change Bitcoins for real money (eg: https://mtgox.com) or

purchase

services or goods in an increasing number of sites.

In order to receive donations you only have to publish one

of

your

accounts as generated by the bitcoin client or any specialized

bitcoin

trader (eg: mybitcoin.com).

Currently some projects as www.i2p2.de,

www.torrentservers.net

and

organizations like the EFF are accepting donations.

In my opinion this kind of decentralized solution without the

need

to

trust any middlemen is much better than Paypal, Visa or

Mastercard

for

security-minded people as most of your donors are.

If you are interested in pushing Bitcoin forward, do not

hesitate

to

contact me if you have any doubt.

Yours,

Cyclonite

-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]> wrote:

Basically Michel, the value of any commodity is determined by whether people believe it is of value. The fact that you can buy and sell something establishes a base-line value for it. The value is a balance between how much of the stuff is available, and how much demand there is for it from potential buyers. Economists called it the law of supply and demand. In the case of bitcoin, we are looking at a commodity (exchangeable electronic "coins") that is scarce - there are only so many coins in existence, and making more of them is a slow, difficult prcess - and for which there is a demand. People are looking around for some kind of means of exchange that can de-link them from the official currencies. Potentially, we have a great demand for bitcoins ... if the idea of using them as a means of payment ever really catches on. Even as it is, there is enough of a demand for bitcoins to "feel their scarcity", and thus, to make them valuable. A price is being set for bitcoins in exchange services. The price is entirely dependent on how badly people want bitcoins, and it seems that the price is on the upswing. This is really the same mechanism as with any kind of money. As long as there are people who want to use it to conduct their business (or to put away for future use), and as long as there is a restricted amount of it, money can be said to have value. The value of any commodity or any kind of money will go up if 1) more people want it or 2) some of it is destroyed or withdrawn from circulation, making it more scarce. Similarly, the value of any commodity or any kind of money will go down if 1) less people want it or 2) more of it is put into circulation, making it comparatively more abundant. That is the mechanism that determines the value of money - ANY kind of money. Sepp

What Sepp describes above is roughly what I've found too. I have a plan to write a post soon for P2PF and FFI blog about bitcoin One immediate insight that I can share is that the p2p mechanisms of bitcoin are very compelling, and so is the fact that it is F/LOSS software. What is missing is the ability to use the software as a means to *issue currency* which would alleviate some of the problems with the original bitcoin currency. It could simply be one of many (a plurality of currencies)

"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition" http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/ http://www.laleva.org http://blog.hasslberger.com/ http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger http://twitter.com/healthsupreme . On Jan 19, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:

there are still basic aspects of bitcoin I don't understand

how can a self-invented coin have any value at all,

who determines that value?

what makes people accept that it has the value it says

which bank is willing to give me other types of money in exchange for that value?

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:

...

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Although I have misgivings about the stability of bitcoin, I support its use. (It's the only thing out there that is completely de-linked from official currencies and from things like precious metals, that is workable for more than just local exchange). To explain my perplexity on bitcoin stability, I quote from the site cyclonite linked: "How much is a Bitcoin worth?

More all the time...

As you can see, over a 4 week period, recently...

The value of  ฿1.00 BTC (one Bitcoin), went from  US$0.06  to  US$0.50  ...within only about 4 weeks.   Yes...   That was an 833% increase in it's value.   Wow." (http://www.bitcoinme.com/) For me, a currency that is to be widely used, should be stable. Stable means it doesn't go down in value, but it also doesn't go up in value excessively. It should be roughly keeping its value. Going up as much as bitcoin evidently does, is a form of instability that will bring disturbance to a marketplace using bitcoin as its means of exchange.

bitcoin does seem to have stabilized after that initial jump. I think the initial jump was due to the network effect of how fast the current group of adopters jumped on board and started using bitcoin.

Still, this is a of course a valid point. Although, the value increase seems to have been mostly beneficial to the early adopters. But, I could see how if the system stabilized, then a new wave of adopters jumped on board, it could suddenly become very unbalanced for the initial participants if various scenarios unfold.

Although, I am not sure *if* the bitcoin system would automatically inflate in an exponential way each time a new wave of participants joins the system.

One real potential problem is making sure that "honest nodes" control the majority of CPU power. So far, so good. It won't be easy for anyone to spoof this system. But, if a group of people wants to intentionally attack the system, there could be problems. Bitcoin is a good candidate for complex systems models as a means to put more foresight into stability, health, etc

...

This instability could and should be remedied by adjusting the target total of bitcoin creation with an algorithm that takes into account the number of active bitcoin users. As the number of users increases, the total target amount of bitcoins to be created (which currently is fixed at 21,000,000) should increase, slowly creeping up to accomodate the demand of new users for bitcoins, in a way to keep the value of one single coin roughly stable. I do not know whether the creators of bitcoin would be willing to do this. For me, such an adjustment will be necessary to take bitcoin from experimental status to widely-used alternative means of payment status.

Sepp, this is a great point.

One of the nice things about bitcoin is that it is F/LOSS, so it is ultimately fork-able. If bad decisions are made about the growth, the project could be forked, a different governance scheme could be implemented, etc.

I don't yet know enough about bitcoin to be 100% sure, but the system at least for the time being does seem to have stabilized (it could simply mean that participation has stabilized).

Bit coin claims:

"Once a predetermined number of coins have entered circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees and be completely inflation free."

And yes Michel, I will post this on the blog and in wiki :)

...

Kind regards Sepp

On Jan 17, 2011, at 4:44 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:

Cyclonite, personally I am ready to work with bitcoin today, although the rest of p2pf may not be, which I'll respect

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Cyclonite <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Guys,

I think there is some kind of misunderstanding here, you do not need to manually generate any kind of public/private keys as with OpenPGP.

You can even sign up in a website as mybitcoin.com and start making or receiving donations.

In my opinion the best available info for beginners is http://bitcoinme.com. Please take a look and you will get your doubts clear.

Best regards,

Cyclonite.

--

Secure Email contact: https://privacybox.de/cyclonite.msg

Bitcoin donations jar: 16FVZweaaJLvhAy91oDugqaf84kXiDJ9PG

-------- Original Message --------

From: Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

To: james burke <[email protected]>

Cc: Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>, [email protected], p2p-foundation <[email protected]>, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]>, Georg Pleger <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Bitcoin donation

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:30:23 -0500

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:54 AM, james burke <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Michel,

Yes, I do have a public key, but yet again,

another nice idea with terrible interaction design and userbility

- most people have no clue about public private keys, so this keeps it a

geek thing

I agree, although as far as I can see, the application at least takes

care of this for the user. Still, your point is valid in that some

people may not understand what is happening.

Most of the users of bitcoin now are early adopters, however. So, if

p2pf did support donation via bitcoin, it would be joining an ecology

of early adopters, and would likely only receive donation from those

early adopters.

- the actual app upon launch is unclear. Where to click, what to do,gah!

I can't really support this even if it is a p2p solution.

James

Seems reasonable. If p2pf changes it's mind, I'm willing to

participate in any experiments with bitcoin

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>

wrote:

James,

do you have a public key?

Michel

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

wrote:

This is a p2p application, so we would need to post your's or James's

public key, and people who want to donate bitcoins would need then

send you the bitcoins by downloading the bitcoin application and

sending it to you

quote:

"Bitcoin utilizes public/private key digital signatures (ECDSA). A

coin has its owner's public key on it. When a coin is transferred from

user A to user B, A adds B’s public key to the coin and signs it with

his own private key. Now B owns the coin and can transfer it further.

To prevent A from transferring the already used coin to another user

C, a public list of all the previous transactions is collectively

maintained by the network of Bitcoin nodes, and before each

transaction the coin’s unusedness will be checked."

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Michel Bauwens

<[email protected]> wrote:

Sam, can you help us install it on the wiki and blog?

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

wrote:

I've downloaded and installed and am game to try with p2pf network

folks.

This could actually be really useful for lots of local economy efforts

too.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Michel Bauwens

<[email protected]>

wrote:

Dear,

thanks a lot for this email,

it seems that it is worthwhile for us to experiment with this, but I

will

forward this to James Burke for possible implementation

James, I think we should do this, what do  you think?

Michel

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:42 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1

Dear friends,

I have been looking in your site for any reference to Bitcoin for

making a

small donation.

As  you  probably  know,  Bitcoin  (bitcoin.org)  is  a  new kind

of a

P2P

crypto-currency in which the general public can  make donations,

macro

 or

micropayments   in  a  secure  and   anonymous  way  usually

 without

 any

transaction fee involved.

You can change Bitcoins for real money (eg: https://mtgox.com) or

purchase

services or goods in an increasing number of sites.

In  order to  receive  donations you  only have  to  publish  one

 of

your

accounts  as generated  by the  bitcoin client  or any specialized

bitcoin

trader (eg: mybitcoin.com).

Currently  some   projects  as  www.i2p2.de,

 www.torrentservers.net

and

organizations like the EFF are accepting donations.

In  my  opinion  this  kind  of decentralized solution without the

need

to

trust  any  middlemen  is much better than  Paypal, Visa or

Mastercard

for

security-minded people as most of your donors are.

If  you  are  interested in  pushing  Bitcoin forward,  do not

hesitate

to

contact me if you have any doubt.

Yours,

Cyclonite

-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 6:14 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:

ok, I get it, so there are people out there actually wanting to 'buy' bitcoins, and I wasn't aware of that, and obviously, this needs to be bought and expressed by another existing currency, hence the 'value'

Yes, from what I can tell, *now* the best way to get bitcoins is to buy them. However, it seems based on reading online discussions that in the earliest days of bitcoin activity, that it was a bit easier to contribute your personal computer power to the network and "generate" coins. Now, it the calculations are over a year for a typical laptop (ref: http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php ) A whole history of trading can be viewed here: https://mtgox.com/trade/history Again, I think there is only one real issue with bitcoin: that it is a homogenous currency. I am looking at the idea of soliciting donations towards extending bitcoin software so that users may either issue new currency (with new rules), or participate in existing currencies all from the same protocol/software.

I 'got' it <g>

By the way, alt.currency/credit commons expert Thomas Greco is in Chiang Mai!

Michel

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Basically Michel, the value of any commodity is determined by whether people believe it is of value. The fact that you can buy and sell something establishes a base-line value for it. The value is a balance between how much of the stuff is available, and how much demand there is for it from potential buyers. Economists called it the law of supply and demand. In the case of bitcoin, we are looking at a commodity (exchangeable electronic "coins") that is scarce - there are only so many coins in existence, and making more of them is a slow, difficult prcess - and for which there is a demand. People are looking around for some kind of means of exchange that can de-link them from the official currencies. Potentially, we have a great demand for bitcoins ... if the idea of using them as a means of payment ever really catches on. Even as it is, there is enough of a demand for bitcoins to "feel their scarcity", and thus, to make them valuable. A price is being set for bitcoins in exchange services. The price is entirely dependent on how badly people want bitcoins, and it seems that the price is on the upswing. This is really the same mechanism as with any kind of money. As long as there are people who want to use it to conduct their business (or to put away for future use), and as long as there is a restricted amount of it, money can be said to have value. The value of any commodity or any kind of money will go up if 1) more people want it or 2) some of it is destroyed or withdrawn from circulation, making it more scarce. Similarly, the value of any commodity or any kind of money will go down if 1) less people want it or 2) more of it is put into circulation, making it comparatively more abundant.

...

That is the mechanism that determines the value of money - ANY kind of money. Sepp

"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition" http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/ http://www.laleva.org http://blog.hasslberger.com/ http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger http://twitter.com/healthsupreme . On Jan 19, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:

there are still basic aspects of bitcoin I don't understand

how can a self-invented coin have any value at all,

who determines that value?

what makes people accept that it has the value it says

which bank is willing to give me other types of money in exchange for that value?

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:

...

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Although I have misgivings about the stability of bitcoin, I support its use. (It's the only thing out there that is completely de-linked from official currencies and from things like precious metals, that is workable for more than just local exchange). To explain my perplexity on bitcoin stability, I quote from the site cyclonite linked: "How much is a Bitcoin worth?

More all the time...

As you can see, over a 4 week period, recently...

The value of  ฿1.00 BTC (one Bitcoin), went from  US$0.06  to  US$0.50  ...within only about 4 weeks.   Yes...   That was an 833% increase in it's value.   Wow." (http://www.bitcoinme.com/) For me, a currency that is to be widely used, should be stable. Stable means it doesn't go down in value, but it also doesn't go up in value excessively. It should be roughly keeping its value. Going up as much as bitcoin evidently does, is a form of instability that will bring disturbance to a marketplace using bitcoin as its means of exchange.

bitcoin does seem to have stabilized after that initial jump. I think the initial jump was due to the network effect of how fast the current group of adopters jumped on board and started using bitcoin.

Still, this is a of course a valid point. Although, the value increase seems to have been mostly beneficial to the early adopters. But, I could see how if the system stabilized, then a new wave of adopters jumped on board, it could suddenly become very unbalanced for the initial participants if various scenarios unfold.

Although, I am not sure *if* the bitcoin system would automatically inflate in an exponential way each time a new wave of participants joins the system.

One real potential problem is making sure that "honest nodes" control the majority of CPU power. So far, so good. It won't be easy for anyone to spoof this system. But, if a group of people wants to intentionally attack the system, there could be problems. Bitcoin is a good candidate for complex systems models as a means to put more foresight into stability, health, etc

...

This instability could and should be remedied by adjusting the target total of bitcoin creation with an algorithm that takes into account the number of active bitcoin users. As the number of users increases, the total target amount of bitcoins to be created (which currently is fixed at 21,000,000) should increase, slowly creeping up to accomodate the demand of new users for bitcoins, in a way to keep the value of one single coin roughly stable. I do not know whether the creators of bitcoin would be willing to do this. For me, such an adjustment will be necessary to take bitcoin from experimental status to widely-used alternative means of payment status.

Sepp, this is a great point.

One of the nice things about bitcoin is that it is F/LOSS, so it is ultimately fork-able. If bad decisions are made about the growth, the project could be forked, a different governance scheme could be implemented, etc.

I don't yet know enough about bitcoin to be 100% sure, but the system at least for the time being does seem to have stabilized (it could simply mean that participation has stabilized).

Bit coin claims:

"Once a predetermined number of coins have entered circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees and be completely inflation free."

And yes Michel, I will post this on the blog and in wiki :)

...

Kind regards Sepp

On Jan 17, 2011, at 4:44 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:

Cyclonite, personally I am ready to work with bitcoin today, although the rest of p2pf may not be, which I'll respect

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Cyclonite <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Guys,

I think there is some kind of misunderstanding here, you do not need to manually generate any kind of public/private keys as with OpenPGP.

You can even sign up in a website as mybitcoin.com and start making or receiving donations.

In my opinion the best available info for beginners is http://bitcoinme.com. Please take a look and you will get your doubts clear.

Best regards,

Cyclonite.

--

Secure Email contact: https://privacybox.de/cyclonite.msg

Bitcoin donations jar: 16FVZweaaJLvhAy91oDugqaf84kXiDJ9PG

-------- Original Message --------

From: Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

To: james burke <[email protected]>

Cc: Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>, [email protected], p2p-foundation <[email protected]>, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]>, Georg Pleger <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Bitcoin donation

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:30:23 -0500

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:54 AM, james burke <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Michel,

Yes, I do have a public key, but yet again,

another nice idea with terrible interaction design and userbility

- most people have no clue about public private keys, so this keeps it a

geek thing

I agree, although as far as I can see, the application at least takes

care of this for the user. Still, your point is valid in that some

people may not understand what is happening.

Most of the users of bitcoin now are early adopters, however. So, if

p2pf did support donation via bitcoin, it would be joining an ecology

of early adopters, and would likely only receive donation from those

early adopters.

- the actual app upon launch is unclear. Where to click, what to do,gah!

I can't really support this even if it is a p2p solution.

James

Seems reasonable. If p2pf changes it's mind, I'm willing to

participate in any experiments with bitcoin

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>

wrote:

James,

do you have a public key?

Michel

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

wrote:

This is a p2p application, so we would need to post your's or James's

public key, and people who want to donate bitcoins would need then

send you the bitcoins by downloading the bitcoin application and

sending it to you

quote:

"Bitcoin utilizes public/private key digital signatures (ECDSA). A

coin has its owner's public key on it. When a coin is transferred from

user A to user B, A adds B’s public key to the coin and signs it with

his own private key. Now B owns the coin and can transfer it further.

To prevent A from transferring the already used coin to another user

C, a public list of all the previous transactions is collectively

maintained by the network of Bitcoin nodes, and before each

transaction the coin’s unusedness will be checked."

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Michel Bauwens

<[email protected]> wrote:

Sam, can you help us install it on the wiki and blog?

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

wrote:

I've downloaded and installed and am game to try with p2pf network

folks.

This could actually be really useful for lots of local economy efforts

too.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Michel Bauwens

<[email protected]>

wrote:

Dear,

thanks a lot for this email,

it seems that it is worthwhile for us to experiment with this, but I

will

forward this to James Burke for possible implementation

James, I think we should do this, what do  you think?

Michel

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:42 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1

Dear friends,

I have been looking in your site for any reference to Bitcoin for

making a

small donation.

As  you  probably  know,  Bitcoin  (bitcoin.org)  is  a  new kind

of a

P2P

crypto-currency in which the general public can  make donations,

macro

 or

micropayments   in  a  secure  and   anonymous  way  usually

 without

 any

transaction fee involved.

You can change Bitcoins for real money (eg: https://mtgox.com) or

purchase

services or goods in an increasing number of sites.

In  order to  receive  donations you  only have  to  publish  one

 of

your

accounts  as generated  by the  bitcoin client  or any specialized

bitcoin

trader (eg: mybitcoin.com).

Currently  some   projects  as  www.i2p2.de,

 www.torrentservers.net

and

organizations like the EFF are accepting donations.

In  my  opinion  this  kind  of decentralized solution without the

need

to

trust  any  middlemen  is much better than  Paypal, Visa or

Mastercard

for

security-minded people as most of your donors are.

If  you  are  interested in  pushing  Bitcoin forward,  do not

hesitate

to

contact me if you have any doubt.

Yours,

Cyclonite

-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan

yep as this post discusses http://forwardfound.org/blog/?q=sustainable-monetary-systems requisite diversity is required for sustainability -p On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 7:48 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 6:14 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:

...

ok, I get it, so there are people out there actually wanting to 'buy' bitcoins, and I wasn't aware of that, and obviously, this needs to be bought and expressed by another existing currency, hence the 'value'

Yes, from what I can tell, *now* the best way to get bitcoins is to buy them. However, it seems based on reading online discussions that in the earliest days of bitcoin activity, that it was a bit easier to contribute your personal computer power to the network and "generate" coins. Now, it the calculations are over a year for a typical laptop (ref: http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php )

A whole history of trading can be  viewed here: https://mtgox.com/trade/history

Again, I think there is only one real issue with bitcoin: that it is a homogenous currency. I am looking at the idea of soliciting donations towards extending bitcoin software so that users may either issue new currency (with new rules), or participate in existing currencies all from the same protocol/software.

...

I 'got' it <g>

By the way, alt.currency/credit commons expert Thomas Greco is in Chiang Mai!

Michel

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Basically Michel, the value of any commodity is determined by whether people believe it is of value. The fact that you can buy and sell something establishes a base-line value for it. The value is a balance between how much of the stuff is available, and how much demand there is for it from potential buyers. Economists called it the law of supply and demand. In the case of bitcoin, we are looking at a commodity (exchangeable electronic "coins") that is scarce - there are only so many coins in existence, and making more of them is a slow, difficult prcess - and for which there is a demand. People are looking around for some kind of means of exchange that can de-link them from the official currencies. Potentially, we have a great demand for bitcoins ... if the idea of using them as a means of payment ever really catches on. Even as it is, there is enough of a demand for bitcoins to "feel their scarcity", and thus, to make them valuable. A price is being set for bitcoins in exchange services. The price is entirely dependent on how badly people want bitcoins, and it seems that the price is on the upswing. This is really the same mechanism as with any kind of money. As long as there are people who want to use it to conduct their business (or to put away for future use), and as long as there is a restricted amount of it, money can be said to have value. The value of any commodity or any kind of money will go up if 1) more people want it or 2) some of it is destroyed or withdrawn from circulation, making it more scarce. Similarly, the value of any commodity or any kind of money will go down if 1) less people want it or 2) more of it is put into circulation, making it comparatively more abundant.

...

That is the mechanism that determines the value of money - ANY kind of money. Sepp

"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition" http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/ http://www.laleva.org http://blog.hasslberger.com/ http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger http://twitter.com/healthsupreme . On Jan 19, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:

there are still basic aspects of bitcoin I don't understand

how can a self-invented coin have any value at all,

who determines that value?

what makes people accept that it has the value it says

which bank is willing to give me other types of money in exchange for that value?

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:

...

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Although I have misgivings about the stability of bitcoin, I support its use. (It's the only thing out there that is completely de-linked from official currencies and from things like precious metals, that is workable for more than just local exchange). To explain my perplexity on bitcoin stability, I quote from the site cyclonite linked: "How much is a Bitcoin worth?

More all the time...

As you can see, over a 4 week period, recently...

The value of  ฿1.00 BTC (one Bitcoin), went from  US$0.06  to  US$0.50  ...within only about 4 weeks.   Yes...   That was an 833% increase in it's value.   Wow." (http://www.bitcoinme.com/) For me, a currency that is to be widely used, should be stable. Stable means it doesn't go down in value, but it also doesn't go up in value excessively. It should be roughly keeping its value. Going up as much as bitcoin evidently does, is a form of instability that will bring disturbance to a marketplace using bitcoin as its means of exchange.

bitcoin does seem to have stabilized after that initial jump. I think the initial jump was due to the network effect of how fast the current group of adopters jumped on board and started using bitcoin.

Still, this is a of course a valid point. Although, the value increase seems to have been mostly beneficial to the early adopters. But, I could see how if the system stabilized, then a new wave of adopters jumped on board, it could suddenly become very unbalanced for the initial participants if various scenarios unfold.

Although, I am not sure *if* the bitcoin system would automatically inflate in an exponential way each time a new wave of participants joins the system.

One real potential problem is making sure that "honest nodes" control the majority of CPU power. So far, so good. It won't be easy for anyone to spoof this system. But, if a group of people wants to intentionally attack the system, there could be problems. Bitcoin is a good candidate for complex systems models as a means to put more foresight into stability, health, etc

...

This instability could and should be remedied by adjusting the target total of bitcoin creation with an algorithm that takes into account the number of active bitcoin users. As the number of users increases, the total target amount of bitcoins to be created (which currently is fixed at 21,000,000) should increase, slowly creeping up to accomodate the demand of new users for bitcoins, in a way to keep the value of one single coin roughly stable. I do not know whether the creators of bitcoin would be willing to do this. For me, such an adjustment will be necessary to take bitcoin from experimental status to widely-used alternative means of payment status.

Sepp, this is a great point.

One of the nice things about bitcoin is that it is F/LOSS, so it is ultimately fork-able. If bad decisions are made about the growth, the project could be forked, a different governance scheme could be implemented, etc.

I don't yet know enough about bitcoin to be 100% sure, but the system at least for the time being does seem to have stabilized (it could simply mean that participation has stabilized).

Bit coin claims:

"Once a predetermined number of coins have entered circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees and be completely inflation free."

And yes Michel, I will post this on the blog and in wiki :)

...

Kind regards Sepp

On Jan 17, 2011, at 4:44 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:

Cyclonite, personally I am ready to work with bitcoin today, although the rest of p2pf may not be, which I'll respect

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Cyclonite <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Guys,

I think there is some kind of misunderstanding here, you do not need to manually generate any kind of public/private keys as with OpenPGP.

You can even sign up in a website as mybitcoin.com and start making or receiving donations.

In my opinion the best available info for beginners is http://bitcoinme.com. Please take a look and you will get your doubts clear.

Best regards,

Cyclonite.

--

Secure Email contact: https://privacybox.de/cyclonite.msg

Bitcoin donations jar: 16FVZweaaJLvhAy91oDugqaf84kXiDJ9PG

-------- Original Message --------

From: Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

To: james burke <[email protected]>

Cc: Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>, [email protected], p2p-foundation <[email protected]>, Sepp Hasslberger <[email protected]>, Georg Pleger <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: Bitcoin donation

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:30:23 -0500

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:54 AM, james burke <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Michel,

Yes, I do have a public key, but yet again,

another nice idea with terrible interaction design and userbility

- most people have no clue about public private keys, so this keeps it a

geek thing

I agree, although as far as I can see, the application at least takes

care of this for the user. Still, your point is valid in that some

people may not understand what is happening.

Most of the users of bitcoin now are early adopters, however. So, if

p2pf did support donation via bitcoin, it would be joining an ecology

of early adopters, and would likely only receive donation from those

early adopters.

- the actual app upon launch is unclear. Where to click, what to do,gah!

I can't really support this even if it is a p2p solution.

James

Seems reasonable. If p2pf changes it's mind, I'm willing to

participate in any experiments with bitcoin

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>

wrote:

James,

do you have a public key?

Michel

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

wrote:

This is a p2p application, so we would need to post your's or James's

public key, and people who want to donate bitcoins would need then

send you the bitcoins by downloading the bitcoin application and

sending it to you

quote:

"Bitcoin utilizes public/private key digital signatures (ECDSA). A

coin has its owner's public key on it. When a coin is transferred from

user A to user B, A adds B’s public key to the coin and signs it with

his own private key. Now B owns the coin and can transfer it further.

To prevent A from transferring the already used coin to another user

C, a public list of all the previous transactions is collectively

maintained by the network of Bitcoin nodes, and before each

transaction the coin’s unusedness will be checked."

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Michel Bauwens

<[email protected]> wrote:

Sam, can you help us install it on the wiki and blog?

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>

wrote:

I've downloaded and installed and am game to try with p2pf network

folks.

This could actually be really useful for lots of local economy efforts

too.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Michel Bauwens

<[email protected]>

wrote:

Dear,

thanks a lot for this email,

it seems that it is worthwhile for us to experiment with this, but I

will

forward this to James Burke for possible implementation

James, I think we should do this, what do  you think?

Michel

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:42 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1

Dear friends,

I have been looking in your site for any reference to Bitcoin for

making a

small donation.

As  you  probably  know,  Bitcoin  (bitcoin.org)  is  a  new kind

of a

P2P

crypto-currency in which the general public can  make donations,

macro

 or

micropayments   in  a  secure  and   anonymous  way  usually

 without

 any

transaction fee involved.

You can change Bitcoins for real money (eg: https://mtgox.com) or

purchase

services or goods in an increasing number of sites.

In  order to  receive  donations you  only have  to  publish  one

 of

your

accounts  as generated  by the  bitcoin client  or any specialized

bitcoin

trader (eg: mybitcoin.com).

Currently  some   projects  as  www.i2p2.de,

 www.torrentservers.net

and

organizations like the EFF are accepting donations.

In  my  opinion  this  kind  of decentralized solution without the

need

to

trust  any  middlemen  is much better than  Paypal, Visa or

Mastercard

for

security-minded people as most of your donors are.

If  you  are  interested in  pushing  Bitcoin forward,  do not

hesitate

to

contact me if you have any doubt.

Yours,

Cyclonite

-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan

-- -------------------------------------------------------- The Forward Foundation http://www.ForwardFound.org [email protected] -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.PaulBHartzog.org [email protected] -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.panarchy.com [email protected] -------------------------------------------------------- University of Michigan [email protected] -------------------------------------------------------- The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms.                  --Muriel Rukeyser Perceive differently, then you will act differently.                  --Paul B. Hartzog --------------------------------------------------------