Thanks Michel for your reply. In short, I found a first investor to buy a building in Leipzig, to kickstart http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project I will need support to develop such approach, and will invite people contributing to live there rent free. Leipzig ( and more generally parts of Eastern Germany ) is relatively cheap in european terms ( 100 euro square meter ), while having relatively good infrastructure. I see potential for scalability. Till now, the process is slow - though I feel it can accelerate. The longer version below... I see other interesting conversations related to such approach on a facebook group called "The Next Edge", and on which some people on this list seem to participate. ( let me know if I can invite you to it ) /// Indeed, it is true that I have been fully engaged for many years, such as a number of people on this list, maintaining a vision for an emergent approach. Thanks Marc for your understanding regarding the 24/7 space availability importance, which I personally see as *aggregators* enabling emergent and currently *VIABLE ( social and economic ) distributed systems.* Yes, It is *already possible, with time, to individually have access to our own options*, some which can be considered as 24/7 spaces. ( aka "homes" ), while also knowing about places open part time ( universities, coworking spaces, etc ) - this is, for me and for other people I am in touch with, a *current stage.* In addition to this, there are *events* which enable *temporary convergences *, and* online convergence spaces*, such as this mailing list, and I wish to *understand how to further harness the potential of the people each of us meet*, because... idealistically, I wish to meet each of the people sharing such interests :) ... and enable, not only individual options, but also* "emergent options".* Now... What I wish, is to make a 24/7 physical NETWORK of spaces available to each of us , in a way for this space ( including financially ) , in a way that can reduce our dependency on systems we do not wish to support, and without requiring to adapt to any one specific collectivist culture, yet enabling a local mesh of a plurality of cultures which are not closed on themselves and can be open to individualist collaboration , enabling each to set their own approach while having the choice to integrate ( or not ) with other's protocols, and in a setting that enables easy connections to trans-regional networks, in cities but in connection to the local countryside. I visited many places and communities, experienced different cultures, over the past years, and wish to integrate some practices I encountered into an emergent synthesis. I imagine several places could enable such kind of approach. I think especially of places which are not too expensive, as to avoid getting into debt. Some of the approaches may have been discussed on p2pf lists. I for example wish to buy where the land is cheap compared to the available infrastructure, and then create our own value while avoiding financial speculation on such creation, through a combination of commons and cooperative approaches. The revival of certain declining cities, in post-industrial frameworks, provide some inspiration to me, which I can see as an approach to combine various existing movements while enabling the creation of *viable complex systems*. A number of people on this list, a number of people we may be meeting, have experience in such fields, and I wish for further convergence. This is the *approach I am planning ( remotely )**, in Leipzig :* http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project A difficulty I face in an emergent process is to create engagement in initial stages, especially when I have no personal ( monetary ) resources, and when my current access to shelter and living is far from the place I wish to develop the intentional engagements for co-creating and sharing viable economies. I now* found an investor *for buying a 600 square meter building in Leipzig, which is a first step for me to spend more time there and to invite people to live there *without rent*, progressively setting up with people speaking german other legal and financial solutions to purchase our own flats ( in good condition, and with a renovated roof ) within the city for one hundred euros a square meter ( 100 euro / m2 ) I did build up small local networks of friends here in Brussels, and am or have been connected to other communities - ecovillage, nomadbase, etc over the last 8 years. What I express now is a further synthesis. Not only a place to pass by, not only the potential for an isolated collectivist space, but a potential for a scalable regional economy converging various of the practices and experiments we mention. A european base for people sharing certain memes, a base where people can purchase and develop their own usufruct infrastructure, while also having access to mainstream existing infrastructures. On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 7:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:

hi Dante,

as a knowledge commons community and due to personal limitations, I don't personally try to build physical collectives, and after five years, there is no sign of other people in our community doing this under p2p-f banners.

However, more generally, there are thousands of p2p/commons oriented collectives already existing, including in Brussels, so it's a matter of choosing, and then committing yourself to contributing to it, and everything flows from there; or atlernatively, creating an initiative yourself.

I have choosen to live in an extended kinship-based community here in Thailand and realize that I have never been happier than in this context, (my own communal experiments having been less than successfull) and I then augment this intimacy based connection with intellectual community through p2p-f and the global emerging p2p/commons movement.

I notice that you are pretty much asking the same questions as 5 years ago, perhaps you are reluctant to commit, and not really wanting what you say or think you want? Not sure what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure it's not an issue of lack of choice 'out there'. Perhaps you should contemplate an effort to 'construct' something, physical or virtual, beyond the nomadic approach (which can also be an internal attitude). I don't think it matters 'what' you construct, but 'that' you construct, and that through planting a flag in the ground, you allow others to align themselves to your values and actions. But p2p is essentially an object-oriented relationality, without shared object, it does not get off the ground.

Michel

Michel

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Thanks Michel

Further below, some thoughts which stem out of this french lecture.

I extend the lecture context as to delve into broad questions :

- How to increase the potential to share and create with individuals who attend the same events, when such events are too short in time to truly get to know each other

*- How to make it easier to introduce some people we meet,* *to other people we may not yet know personally *within our interconnected networks* , **based on shared interests, specific objectives or geographical proximity ?* * * *- How to do so in a way that enables a general appreciation of context , and context building processes ? [5]* * * *- If we get to know each other, how do we enable further engagement for co-creation based on respective individual social and financial contexts ? * * * *- Do we have p2p physical places to go to, converge and experiment p2p approaches, and get to know each other ?* *Permanent p2p collectives ?*

///

When listening to the lecture and questions asked by people attending it, I realize there are very probably *people I could interact or collaborate with.*

Unfortunately, I was not in Paris for that specific seminar, yet indirectly, I experience that *each of us can indirectly benefit from the contacts other people in our networks make*

When I go to seminars with people sharing interests, it is *not always easy to get in touch personally* , especially when there is no time for informal get to know's, or for art of hosting type of approaches.

*Lists such as this one are useful *- yet I can hear that *for some people* ( including sometimes myself )* it represents an overflow of information.*

*Hence more specifically defined lists* or *information aggregation stemming out* of more general ones ( can ) get *created around more specific objectives*. *[1]*

At some point ( around 1hour30-31 minutes ) , a lady asks if you are connected to movements such as "Attac", and *you reply that you stay open for dialogue with a variety of backgrounds [2]** *

Within such larger framework, regarding strategies used* [3]* ,

I realize that as an individual, though well connected, I can find difficulties in finding approaches to not only interact but share and* engage* together with other individuals who apply such culture and approaches in their *daily lives*, to build up such infrastructures of *interdependence beyond the immateria *l - internet based exchanges.

Some of the people I connected to in face to face interactions are on this list. A number of us are spread across europe and/or the world.

A variety of initiatives and environments exist *[4]*

If Phyles related to some of our interconnected networks further emerge, how do you imagine them ?

Would you personally ( or other people on this list ? ) be interested in supporting "co-living - co-working" spaces ?

Would we end up living together ?

I realize living together , or at least have a physical convergence point where to contribute to based on shared memes, is important to me. Yet till now I find initiatives and people spread all over.

Hence my interest in finding low cost ( kind of venture communist ? ) approaches to make infrastructure available, as to enable contributions to local viable systems based on p2p approaches.

I d wish for p2p phyles to support such permanent p2p collective approach.

Here is a suggestion : http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project

I d like to provide people with such physical location to converge to, as to facilitate the process of getting to know each other through collaborating.

I do remember, Michel, watching a video of an annex to your home in Thailand, which you imagined could host such p2p friendly facilities. Though I am also aware it may, for individuals such as me here in Europe, be somewhat far.

Is there anyone else interested in such approach, and what are (y)our visions ?

Thanks!

*Foot Notes :*

[1] and mapped as to see how they relate or stem out of each other ?

*[2]* some who are more distributist, others more mutualist, but also people from the right , etc and that you even go and talk to the catholic church upon invitation from the pope. You then further comment that "indignados" and "occupymovements" may possibly relate more easily with the p2p approach ( and ethos ? ) , yet that with the more traditional left you may have felt more resistance, as some left wing backgrounds may remain more conservative in their mode of thought then, as you noted, some profit oriented backgrounds who stay open to new ( p2p ) ideas because of an interest in finding new approaches to make money.

*[3]* to facilitate potential through collaboration around shared intentions, and at the current stage of development

* [4]* Ecovillages and other communities already exist, and can share a number of subcultures brought up here on p2p lists.

Fablabs are emerging , and can also bring people sharing such culture together in an approach to be co-creative while increasing our autonomy through choosing our interdependencies.

For now, more Fablabs in urban centers ? And generally speaking, at the moment still mostly available to a very specific elite of technicians and progressive cultural researchers ? Yet possibly opening up , connecting to community / co-working spaces, such as in Berlin : http://opendesigncity.de/ , or initiated ( or funded ) by research backgrounds with the intention to open up to the community, such as MIT's center for Bits and Atoms http://fab.cba.mit.edu/ , such as this one http://wiki.fablab.af/index.php/Main_Page

*[5] *Holopticism ? http://www.slideshare.net/AlanRosenblith/holopticism

On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:19 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Voici le lien vers la vidéo de votre intervention à La Cantine : http://lacantine.ubicast.eu/videos/webinar-16-12-2011-141701/

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Dante, This 24/7 labs is the type of thing that I have been looking for. I have a control systems engineering degree and am currently working on a masters in computer science. Leipzig looks like a good place to get a Phd. I will help as much as I can from Texas for now. Please inform me of any relevant mailing lists or groups here or off list. Thanks, Lee Nelson On Dec 27, 2011 8:12 AM, "Dante-Gabryell Monson" <[email protected]> wrote:

Thanks Michel for your reply.

In short, I found a first investor to buy a building in Leipzig, to kickstart

http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project

I will need support to develop such approach, and will invite people contributing to live there rent free.

Leipzig ( and more generally parts of Eastern Germany ) is relatively cheap in european terms ( 100 euro square meter ), while having relatively good infrastructure. I see potential for scalability.

Till now, the process is slow - though I feel it can accelerate.

The longer version below... I see other interesting conversations related to such approach on a facebook group called "The Next Edge", and on which some people on this list seem to participate. ( let me know if I can invite you to it )

///

Indeed, it is true that I have been fully engaged for many years, such as a number of people on this list, maintaining a vision for an emergent approach.

Thanks Marc for your understanding regarding the 24/7 space availability importance, which I personally see as *aggregators* enabling emergent and currently *VIABLE ( social and economic ) distributed systems.*

Yes, It is *already possible, with time, to individually have access to our own options*, some which can be considered as 24/7 spaces. ( aka "homes" ), while also knowing about places open part time ( universities, coworking spaces, etc ) - this is, for me and for other people I am in touch with, a *current stage.*

In addition to this, there are *events* which enable *temporary convergences*, and* online convergence spaces*, such as this mailing list, and I wish to *understand how to further harness the potential of the people each of us meet*, because... idealistically, I wish to meet each of the people sharing such interests :) ... and enable, not only individual options, but also* "emergent options".*

Now...

What I wish, is to make a 24/7 physical NETWORK of spaces available to each of us , in a way for this space ( including financially ) , in a way that can reduce our dependency on systems we do not wish to support, and without requiring to adapt to any one specific collectivist culture, yet enabling a local mesh of a plurality of cultures which are not closed on themselves and can be open to individualist collaboration , enabling each to set their own approach while having the choice to integrate ( or not ) with other's protocols, and in a setting that enables easy connections to trans-regional networks, in cities but in connection to the local countryside.

I visited many places and communities, experienced different cultures, over the past years, and wish to integrate some practices I encountered into an emergent synthesis.

I imagine several places could enable such kind of approach. I think especially of places which are not too expensive, as to avoid getting into debt. Some of the approaches may have been discussed on p2pf lists. I for example wish to buy where the land is cheap compared to the available infrastructure, and then create our own value while avoiding financial speculation on such creation, through a combination of commons and cooperative approaches.

The revival of certain declining cities, in post-industrial frameworks, provide some inspiration to me, which I can see as an approach to combine various existing movements while enabling the creation of *viable complex systems*.

A number of people on this list, a number of people we may be meeting, have experience in such fields, and I wish for further convergence.

This is the *approach I am planning ( remotely )**, in Leipzig :*

http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project

A difficulty I face in an emergent process is to create engagement in initial stages, especially when I have no personal ( monetary ) resources, and when my current access to shelter and living is far from the place I wish to develop the intentional engagements for co-creating and sharing viable economies.

I now* found an investor *for buying a 600 square meter building in Leipzig, which is a first step for me to spend more time there and to invite people to live there *without rent*, progressively setting up with people speaking german other legal and financial solutions to purchase our own flats ( in good condition, and with a renovated roof ) within the city for one hundred euros a square meter ( 100 euro / m2 )

I did build up small local networks of friends here in Brussels, and am or have been connected to other communities - ecovillage, nomadbase, etc over the last 8 years.

What I express now is a further synthesis. Not only a place to pass by, not only the potential for an isolated collectivist space, but a potential for a scalable regional economy converging various of the practices and experiments we mention.

A european base for people sharing certain memes, a base where people can purchase and develop their own usufruct infrastructure, while also having access to mainstream existing infrastructures.

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 7:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:

...

hi Dante,

as a knowledge commons community and due to personal limitations, I don't personally try to build physical collectives, and after five years, there is no sign of other people in our community doing this under p2p-f banners.

However, more generally, there are thousands of p2p/commons oriented collectives already existing, including in Brussels, so it's a matter of choosing, and then committing yourself to contributing to it, and everything flows from there; or atlernatively, creating an initiative yourself.

I have choosen to live in an extended kinship-based community here in Thailand and realize that I have never been happier than in this context, (my own communal experiments having been less than successfull) and I then augment this intimacy based connection with intellectual community through p2p-f and the global emerging p2p/commons movement.

I notice that you are pretty much asking the same questions as 5 years ago, perhaps you are reluctant to commit, and not really wanting what you say or think you want? Not sure what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure it's not an issue of lack of choice 'out there'. Perhaps you should contemplate an effort to 'construct' something, physical or virtual, beyond the nomadic approach (which can also be an internal attitude). I don't think it matters 'what' you construct, but 'that' you construct, and that through planting a flag in the ground, you allow others to align themselves to your values and actions. But p2p is essentially an object-oriented relationality, without shared object, it does not get off the ground.

Michel

Michel

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Thanks Michel

Further below, some thoughts which stem out of this french lecture.

I extend the lecture context as to delve into broad questions :

- How to increase the potential to share and create with individuals who attend the same events, when such events are too short in time to truly get to know each other

*- How to make it easier to introduce some people we meet,* *to other people we may not yet know personally *within our interconnected networks* , **based on shared interests, specific objectives or geographical proximity ?* * * *- How to do so in a way that enables a general appreciation of context , and context building processes ? [5]* * * *- If we get to know each other, how do we enable further engagement for co-creation based on respective individual social and financial contexts ?* * * *- Do we have p2p physical places to go to, converge and experiment p2p approaches, and get to know each other ?* *Permanent p2p collectives ?*

///

When listening to the lecture and questions asked by people attending it, I realize there are very probably *people I could interact or collaborate with.*

Unfortunately, I was not in Paris for that specific seminar, yet indirectly, I experience that *each of us can indirectly benefit from the contacts other people in our networks make*

When I go to seminars with people sharing interests, it is *not always easy to get in touch personally* , especially when there is no time for informal get to know's, or for art of hosting type of approaches.

*Lists such as this one are useful *- yet I can hear that *for some people* ( including sometimes myself )* it represents an overflow of information.*

*Hence more specifically defined lists* or *information aggregation stemming out* of more general ones ( can ) get *created around more specific objectives*. *[1]*

At some point ( around 1hour30-31 minutes ) , a lady asks if you are connected to movements such as "Attac", and *you reply that you stay open for dialogue with a variety of backgrounds [2]** *

Within such larger framework, regarding strategies used* [3]* ,

I realize that as an individual, though well connected, I can find difficulties in finding approaches to not only interact but share and* engage* together with other individuals who apply such culture and approaches in their *daily lives*, to build up such infrastructures of *interdependence beyond the immateria*l - internet based exchanges.

Some of the people I connected to in face to face interactions are on this list. A number of us are spread across europe and/or the world.

A variety of initiatives and environments exist *[4]*

If Phyles related to some of our interconnected networks further emerge, how do you imagine them ?

Would you personally ( or other people on this list ? ) be interested in supporting "co-living - co-working" spaces ?

Would we end up living together ?

I realize living together , or at least have a physical convergence point where to contribute to based on shared memes, is important to me. Yet till now I find initiatives and people spread all over.

Hence my interest in finding low cost ( kind of venture communist ? ) approaches to make infrastructure available, as to enable contributions to local viable systems based on p2p approaches.

I d wish for p2p phyles to support such permanent p2p collective approach.

Here is a suggestion : http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project

I d like to provide people with such physical location to converge to, as to facilitate the process of getting to know each other through collaborating.

I do remember, Michel, watching a video of an annex to your home in Thailand, which you imagined could host such p2p friendly facilities. Though I am also aware it may, for individuals such as me here in Europe, be somewhat far.

Is there anyone else interested in such approach, and what are (y)our visions ?

Thanks!

*Foot Notes :*

[1] and mapped as to see how they relate or stem out of each other ?

*[2]* some who are more distributist, others more mutualist, but also people from the right , etc and that you even go and talk to the catholic church upon invitation from the pope. You then further comment that "indignados" and "occupymovements" may possibly relate more easily with the p2p approach ( and ethos ? ) , yet that with the more traditional left you may have felt more resistance, as some left wing backgrounds may remain more conservative in their mode of thought then, as you noted, some profit oriented backgrounds who stay open to new ( p2p ) ideas because of an interest in finding new approaches to make money.

*[3]* to facilitate potential through collaboration around shared intentions, and at the current stage of development

* [4]* Ecovillages and other communities already exist, and can share a number of subcultures brought up here on p2p lists.

Fablabs are emerging , and can also bring people sharing such culture together in an approach to be co-creative while increasing our autonomy through choosing our interdependencies.

For now, more Fablabs in urban centers ? And generally speaking, at the moment still mostly available to a very specific elite of technicians and progressive cultural researchers ? Yet possibly opening up , connecting to community / co-working spaces, such as in Berlin : http://opendesigncity.de/ , or initiated ( or funded ) by research backgrounds with the intention to open up to the community, such as MIT's center for Bits and Atoms http://fab.cba.mit.edu/ , such as this one http://wiki.fablab.af/index.php/Main_Page

*[5] *Holopticism ? http://www.slideshare.net/AlanRosenblith/holopticism

On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:19 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Voici le lien vers la vidéo de votre intervention à La Cantine : http://lacantine.ubicast.eu/videos/webinar-16-12-2011-141701/

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation