Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
Michel Bauwens wrote:
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]>wrote:
Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? Where do you draw the line?
good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces such as racism, genderism, etc ..
Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good. Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'.
a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her?
these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose values I object to ...
I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software. Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course. So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do. And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that?
what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'. Best regards Christian -- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]>wrote:
Michel Bauwens wrote:
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes < [email protected]>wrote:
Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? Where do you draw the line?
good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces such as racism, genderism, etc ..
Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good.
Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'.
well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation
a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her?
these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose values I object to ...
I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software.
they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population ..
Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course.
So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do.
I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that?
yes
what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained Michel
Best regards Christian
-- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
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Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]> wrote: Michel Bauwens wrote:
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]>wrote:
Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? Where do you draw the line?
good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces such as racism, genderism, etc ..
Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good. Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'. well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation
a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her?
these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose values I object to ...
I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software. they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population .. Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course. So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do. I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake. And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that? yes
what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'. ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained Michel Best regards Christian -- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
hi natalie, I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one .. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]>wrote:
Michel Bauwens wrote:
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes < [email protected]>wrote:
Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? Where do you draw the line?
good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces such as racism, genderism, etc ..
Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good.
Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'.
well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation
a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her?
these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose values I object to ...
I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software.
they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population ..
Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course.
So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do.
I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that?
yes
what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals
at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained
Michel
Best regards Christian
-- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
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-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a better society. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge hi natalie, I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one .. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]> wrote: Michel Bauwens wrote: > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]>wrote: >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? >> > Where do you draw the line? > > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces > such as racism, genderism, etc .. Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good. Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'. well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her? > > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose > values I object to ... I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software. they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population .. Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course. So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do. I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake. And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that? yes > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ?? "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'. ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained Michel Best regards Christian -- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
This is such an old paradigm conversation. First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this person." Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking place. Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need to end. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a better society.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
hi natalie,
I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one ..
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]
wrote:
Michel Bauwens wrote:
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes < [email protected]>wrote:
Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? Where do you draw the line?
good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces such as racism, genderism, etc ..
Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good.
Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'.
well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation
a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her?
these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose values I object to ...
I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software.
they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population ..
Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course.
So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do.
I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that?
yes
what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals
at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained
Michel
Best regards Christian
-- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
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-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
Agreed-and you can’t be replying to me. I support Ron Paul. I was answering a post that said people shouldn’t cooperate with others if they had “incorrect” positions & I disagreed with that. From: Devin Balkind Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 12:35 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge This is such an old paradigm conversation. First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this person." Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking place. Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need to end. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a better society. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge hi natalie, I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one .. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]> wrote: Michel Bauwens wrote: > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]>wrote: >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? >> > Where do you draw the line? > > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces > such as racism, genderism, etc .. Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good. Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'. well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her? > > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose > values I object to ... I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software. they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population .. Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course. So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do. I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake. And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that? yes > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ?? "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'. ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained Michel Best regards Christian -- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
hi Devin, I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on corporate media like Fox News BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags, for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of education, abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media, in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these videos, Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are impossible Michel On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]>wrote:
This is such an old paradigm conversation.
First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this person."
Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking place.
Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need to end.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a better society.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
hi natalie,
I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one ..
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes < [email protected]> wrote:
Michel Bauwens wrote:
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes < [email protected]>wrote:
> Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? > Where do you draw the line?
good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces such as racism, genderism, etc ..
Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good.
Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'.
well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation
a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her?
these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose values I object to ...
I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software.
they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population ..
Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course.
So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do.
I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that?
yes
what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals
at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained
Michel
Best regards Christian
-- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
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... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS. Who do you think keeps camps running? People who demand things from government, or people who demand things from themselves? OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
hi Devin,
I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on corporate media like Fox News
BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,
for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of education, abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media,
in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these videos,
Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are impossible
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
This is such an old paradigm conversation.
First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this person."
Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking place.
Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need to end.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a better society.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
hi natalie,
I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one ..
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes < [email protected]> wrote:
Michel Bauwens wrote:
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes < [email protected]>wrote: > > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? > > Where do you draw the line?
good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces such as racism, genderism, etc ..
Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good.
Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'.
well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation
a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her?
these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose values I object to ...
I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software.
they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population ..
Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course.
So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do.
I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that?
yes
what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals
at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained
Michel
Best regards Christian
-- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
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I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a movement of non-representational individuals but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in any of the ows actions or pronouncements ... there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr Natalie's "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's interpret things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist would accept refusing access to different races on private property grounds... from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent of what you and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the stress is about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt takeover of corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are against consumption culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea party action I saw mentioned somewhere) now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it, for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official paulista demands Michel On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]>wrote:
... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS.
Who do you think keeps camps running? People who demand things from government, or people who demand things from themselves?
OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]
wrote:
hi Devin,
I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on corporate media like Fox News
BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,
for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of education, abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media,
in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these videos,
Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are impossible
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
This is such an old paradigm conversation.
First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this person."
Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking place.
Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need to end.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a better society.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
hi natalie,
I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one ..
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes < [email protected]> wrote:
Michel Bauwens wrote: > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes < [email protected]>wrote: >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? >> > Where do you draw the line? > > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces > such as racism, genderism, etc ..
Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good.
Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'.
well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation
> a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her? > > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose > values I object to ...
I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software.
they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population ..
Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course.
So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do.
I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that?
yes
> what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals
at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained
Michel
Best regards Christian
-- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
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I assume you recognize how condescending your tone is but speak this way because you derive some pleasure from engaging in partisan political conflicts. I don't. I find it endlessly frustrating. I'm going to repeat the demands I've posted here many times before: (1) end the wars and dismantle the American empire, (2) end drug prohibition, (3) end the federal reserve bank's monopoly on the production of legal tender. Nader gets it: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progress... On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a movement of non-representational individuals
but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in any of the ows actions or pronouncements ...
there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr Natalie's "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's interpret things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist would accept refusing access to different races on private property grounds...
from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent of what you and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the stress is about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt takeover of corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are against consumption culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea party action I saw mentioned somewhere)
now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it,
for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official paulista demands
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS.
Who do you think keeps camps running? People who demand things from government, or people who demand things from themselves?
OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
hi Devin,
I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on corporate media like Fox News
BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,
for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of education, abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media,
in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these videos,
Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are impossible
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
This is such an old paradigm conversation.
First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this person."
Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking place.
Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need to end.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a better society.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
hi natalie,
I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one ..
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes < [email protected]> wrote:
> Michel Bauwens wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes < > [email protected]>wrote: > >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster > your goals? > >> > Where do you draw the line? > > > > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' > forces > > such as racism, genderism, etc .. > > Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating > others as > your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, > anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their > participation is > likely do to more bad than good. > > Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies > (while, > of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), > hence it > is equally 'anti-p2p'. >
well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation
> > > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free > software, and you > > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her? > > > > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of > libertarians, whose > > values I object to ... > > I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible > more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his > insights > about free software.
they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population ..
> Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little > piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: > http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me > from using > his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of > course. > > So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a > problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But > on the > other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such > standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what > anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is > proposing to do. >
I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
> > And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a > project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage > them > from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it > would be > the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I > hope we > agree on that? >
yes
> > > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 > > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ?? > > "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, > and it > seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea > Party--near > candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such > alliances > will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase > acceptance > for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'. >
ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals
at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained
Michel
> Best regards > Christian > > -- > |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- > | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ > | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ > |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- > It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for > us to > live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of > children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism > is > conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that > enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the > pain of > the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the > dulling of > feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. > -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power > > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >
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Thank You Devin-Awesome! How can we help each other??? From: Devin Balkind Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 11:39 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge I assume you recognize how condescending your tone is but speak this way because you derive some pleasure from engaging in partisan political conflicts. I don't. I find it endlessly frustrating. I'm going to repeat the demands I've posted here many times before: (1) end the wars and dismantle the American empire, (2) end drug prohibition, (3) end the federal reserve bank's monopoly on the production of legal tender. Nader gets it: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progress... On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a movement of non-representational individuals but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in any of the ows actions or pronouncements ... there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr Natalie's "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's interpret things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist would accept refusing access to different races on private property grounds... from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent of what you and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the stress is about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt takeover of corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are against consumption culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea party action I saw mentioned somewhere) now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it, for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official paulista demands Michel On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]> wrote: ... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS. Who do you think keeps camps running? People who demand things from government, or people who demand things from themselves? OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: hi Devin, I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on corporate media like Fox News BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags, for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of education, abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media, in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these videos, Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are impossible Michel On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]> wrote: This is such an old paradigm conversation. First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this person." Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking place. Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need to end. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a better society. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge hi natalie, I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one .. On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]> wrote: Michel Bauwens wrote: > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]>wrote: >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? >> > Where do you draw the line? > > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces > such as racism, genderism, etc .. Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good. Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'. well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her? > > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose > values I object to ... I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software. they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population .. Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course. So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do. I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake. And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that? yes > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ?? "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'. ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained Michel Best regards Christian -- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
hi devin, not at all, I don't recognize that my tone is condenscending, if it appears that way, I apologize ... I'm merely saying that despite looking for commonalities, political and value conflicts cannot be wished away ... what part of the paragraphs below do you find condescending? it's basically a list of ron paul's positions I don't agree with On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]>wrote:
I assume you recognize how condescending your tone is but speak this way because you derive some pleasure from engaging in partisan political conflicts. I don't. I find it endlessly frustrating.
I'm going to repeat the demands I've posted here many times before: (1) end the wars and dismantle the American empire, (2) end drug prohibition, (3) end the federal reserve bank's monopoly on the production of legal tender.
Nader gets it: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progress...
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]
wrote:
I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a movement of non-representational individuals
but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in any of the ows actions or pronouncements ...
there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr Natalie's "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's interpret things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist would accept refusing access to different races on private property grounds...
from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent of what you and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the stress is about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt takeover of corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are against consumption culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea party action I saw mentioned somewhere)
now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it,
for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official paulista demands
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS.
Who do you think keeps camps running? People who demand things from government, or people who demand things from themselves?
OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
hi Devin,
I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on corporate media like Fox News
BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,
for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of education, abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media,
in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these videos,
Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are impossible
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
This is such an old paradigm conversation.
First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this person."
Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking place.
Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need to end.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a better society.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
hi natalie,
I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one ..
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
> Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists > illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many > cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a > Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people > because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal > relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting > for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS > protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than > full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a > mockery-just another kind of segregation. > > *From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM > *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End > the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge > > > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Michel Bauwens wrote: >> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster >> your goals? >> >> > Where do you draw the line? >> > >> > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' >> forces >> > such as racism, genderism, etc .. >> >> Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating >> others as >> your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, >> anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their >> participation is >> likely do to more bad than good. >> >> Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies >> (while, >> of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), >> hence it >> is equally 'anti-p2p'. >> > > > well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as > an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with > catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing > proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property > etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. > of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical > importance in the cooperation > >> >> > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free >> software, and you >> > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with >> her? >> > >> > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of >> libertarians, whose >> > values I object to ... >> >> I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible >> more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his >> insights >> about free software. > > > they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; > the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving > the whole population .. > > > >> Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little >> piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: >> http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me >> from using >> his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of >> course. >> >> So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is >> a >> problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But >> on the >> other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such >> standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is >> what >> anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is >> proposing to do. >> > > I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party > organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; > but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source > libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they > are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake. > >> >> And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in >> a >> project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage >> them >> from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it >> would be >> the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. >> I hope we >> agree on that? >> > > yes > > > >> >> > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 >> > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ?? >> >> "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, >> and it >> seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea >> Party--near >> candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such >> alliances >> will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase >> acceptance >> for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'. >> > > > ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the > like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I > respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal > political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key > goals > > at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and > maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may > become strained > > Michel > > > >> Best regards >> Christian >> >> -- >> |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] >> | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ >> | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ >> |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- >> It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for >> us to >> live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands >> of >> children each day from curable diseases. The existence of >> capitalism is >> conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... >> that >> enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the >> pain of >> the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the >> dulling of >> feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. >> -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >> http://www.p2pfoundation.net >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >
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-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
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-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
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Natalie, we need to advance p2p within the liberty community and liberty within the p2p community. More concretely, we need to show folks how p2p production takes place in a state of liberty and a state of liberty provides the conditions necessary for p2p production. Michel, maybe I misinterpreted the certainty in your tone with condescension. On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
hi devin, not at all, I don't recognize that my tone is condenscending, if it appears that way, I apologize ... I'm merely saying that despite looking for commonalities, political and value conflicts cannot be wished away ... what part of the paragraphs below do you find condescending? it's basically a list of ron paul's positions I don't agree with
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
I assume you recognize how condescending your tone is but speak this way because you derive some pleasure from engaging in partisan political conflicts. I don't. I find it endlessly frustrating.
I'm going to repeat the demands I've posted here many times before: (1) end the wars and dismantle the American empire, (2) end drug prohibition, (3) end the federal reserve bank's monopoly on the production of legal tender.
Nader gets it: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progress...
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a movement of non-representational individuals
but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in any of the ows actions or pronouncements ...
there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr Natalie's "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's interpret things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist would accept refusing access to different races on private property grounds...
from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent of what you and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the stress is about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt takeover of corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are against consumption culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea party action I saw mentioned somewhere)
now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it,
for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official paulista demands
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS.
Who do you think keeps camps running? People who demand things from government, or people who demand things from themselves?
OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
hi Devin,
I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on corporate media like Fox News
BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,
for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of education, abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media,
in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these videos,
Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are impossible
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
This is such an old paradigm conversation.
First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this person."
Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking place.
Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need to end.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
> Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up > on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I > fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line > with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their > preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an > Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still > tyranny-and all in the name of a better society. > > *From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM > *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End > the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge > > hi natalie, > > I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, > 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I > have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one > .. > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists >> illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many >> cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a >> Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people >> because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal >> relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting >> for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS >> protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than >> full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a >> mockery-just another kind of segregation. >> >> *From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM >> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End >> the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Michel Bauwens wrote: >>> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes < >>> [email protected]>wrote: >>> >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster >>> your goals? >>> >> > Where do you draw the line? >>> > >>> > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' >>> forces >>> > such as racism, genderism, etc .. >>> >>> Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating >>> others as >>> your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, >>> anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their >>> participation is >>> likely do to more bad than good. >>> >>> Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies >>> (while, >>> of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), >>> hence it >>> is equally 'anti-p2p'. >>> >> >> >> well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this >> as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with >> catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing >> proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property >> etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. >> of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical >> importance in the cooperation >> >>> >>> > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free >>> software, and you >>> > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with >>> her? >>> > >>> > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of >>> libertarians, whose >>> > values I object to ... >>> >>> I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible >>> more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his >>> insights >>> about free software. >> >> >> they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; >> the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving >> the whole population .. >> >> >> >>> Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little >>> piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: >>> http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me >>> from using >>> his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of >>> course. >>> >>> So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own >>> is a >>> problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But >>> on the >>> other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such >>> standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is >>> what >>> anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" >>> is >>> proposing to do. >>> >> >> I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party >> organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; >> but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source >> libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they >> are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake. >> >>> >>> And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation >>> in a >>> project would cause black people to leave to product, or >>> discourage them >>> from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it >>> would be >>> the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. >>> I hope we >>> agree on that? >>> >> >> yes >> >> >> >>> >>> > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 >>> > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ?? >>> >>> "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, >>> and it >>> seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea >>> Party--near >>> candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such >>> alliances >>> will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase >>> acceptance >>> for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'. >>> >> >> >> ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the >> like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I >> respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal >> political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key >> goals >> >> at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and >> maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may >> become strained >> >> Michel >> >> >> >>> Best regards >>> Christian >>> >>> -- >>> |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] >>> | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: >>> http://www.keimform.de/ >>> | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ >>> |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- >>> It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for >>> us to >>> live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands >>> of >>> children each day from curable diseases. The existence of >>> capitalism is >>> conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... >>> that >>> enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the >>> pain of >>> the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the >>> dulling of >>> feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. >>> -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net >>> >>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: >> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; >> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; >> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> >> ------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >> http://www.p2pfoundation.net >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> _______________________________________________ >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >> http://www.p2pfoundation.net >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
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-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
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-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
hi devin, absolutely did not mean to be condenscending, I swear, but I was expressing a deep unease I have, and i'm not the only one, with what with I consider anarcho-capitalism, 'as a movement or ideology', not in any way with persons in the movement, they are decent persons in nearly any social movement independent of our level of agreement with it; I'm absolutely sure that you are such a person, Michel On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]>wrote:
Natalie, we need to advance p2p within the liberty community and liberty within the p2p community. More concretely, we need to show folks how p2p production takes place in a state of liberty and a state of liberty provides the conditions necessary for p2p production.
Michel, maybe I misinterpreted the certainty in your tone with condescension.
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
hi devin, not at all, I don't recognize that my tone is condenscending, if it appears that way, I apologize ... I'm merely saying that despite looking for commonalities, political and value conflicts cannot be wished away ... what part of the paragraphs below do you find condescending? it's basically a list of ron paul's positions I don't agree with
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
I assume you recognize how condescending your tone is but speak this way because you derive some pleasure from engaging in partisan political conflicts. I don't. I find it endlessly frustrating.
I'm going to repeat the demands I've posted here many times before: (1) end the wars and dismantle the American empire, (2) end drug prohibition, (3) end the federal reserve bank's monopoly on the production of legal tender.
Nader gets it: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progress...
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a movement of non-representational individuals
but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in any of the ows actions or pronouncements ...
there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr Natalie's "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's interpret things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist would accept refusing access to different races on private property grounds...
from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent of what you and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the stress is about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt takeover of corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are against consumption culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea party action I saw mentioned somewhere)
now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it,
for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official paulista demands
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS.
Who do you think keeps camps running? People who demand things from government, or people who demand things from themselves?
OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
hi Devin,
I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on corporate media like Fox News
BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,
for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of education, abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media,
in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these videos,
Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are impossible
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
> This is such an old paradigm conversation. > > First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to > them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this > person." > > Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each > other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this > mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed > production from taking place. > > Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight > out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent > research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and > the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely > terrible and need to end. > > > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected] > > wrote: > >> Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked >> up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I >> fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line >> with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their >> preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an >> Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still >> tyranny-and all in the name of a better society. >> >> *From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM >> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End >> the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge >> >> hi natalie, >> >> I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, >> 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I >> have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one >> .. >> >> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected] >> > wrote: >> >>> Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists >>> illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many >>> cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a >>> Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people >>> because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal >>> relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting >>> for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS >>> protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than >>> full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a >>> mockery-just another kind of segregation. >>> >>> *From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> >>> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM >>> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<[email protected]> >>> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can >>> End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Michel Bauwens wrote: >>>> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes < >>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>> >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster >>>> your goals? >>>> >> > Where do you draw the line? >>>> > >>>> > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely >>>> 'anti-p2p' forces >>>> > such as racism, genderism, etc .. >>>> >>>> Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating >>>> others as >>>> your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, >>>> sexist, >>>> anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their >>>> participation is >>>> likely do to more bad than good. >>>> >>>> Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own >>>> bodies (while, >>>> of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in >>>> doubt), hence it >>>> is equally 'anti-p2p'. >>>> >>> >>> >>> well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this >>> as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with >>> catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing >>> proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property >>> etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. >>> of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical >>> importance in the cooperation >>> >>>> >>>> > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free >>>> software, and you >>>> > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with >>>> her? >>>> > >>>> > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of >>>> libertarians, whose >>>> > values I object to ... >>>> >>>> I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible >>>> more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his >>>> insights >>>> about free software. >>> >>> >>> they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; >>> the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving >>> the whole population .. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little >>>> piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: >>>> http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me >>>> from using >>>> his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, >>>> of course. >>>> >>>> So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own >>>> is a >>>> problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. >>>> But on the >>>> other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such >>>> standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is >>>> what >>>> anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" >>>> is >>>> proposing to do. >>>> >>> >>> I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party >>> organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; >>> but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source >>> libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they >>> are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake. >>> >>>> >>>> And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation >>>> in a >>>> project would cause black people to leave to product, or >>>> discourage them >>>> from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it >>>> would be >>>> the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the >>>> situation. I hope we >>>> agree on that? >>>> >>> >>> yes >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the >>>> 3 >>>> > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ?? >>>> >>>> "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, >>>> and it >>>> seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea >>>> Party--near >>>> candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such >>>> alliances >>>> will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase >>>> acceptance >>>> for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'. >>>> >>> >>> >>> ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the >>> like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I >>> respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal >>> political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key >>> goals >>> >>> at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and >>> maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may >>> become strained >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> >>> >>>> Best regards >>>> Christian >>>> >>>> -- >>>> |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] >>>> | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: >>>> http://www.keimform.de/ >>>> | Peer Production Everywhere: >>>> http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ >>>> |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- >>>> It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible >>>> for us to >>>> live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of >>>> thousands of >>>> children each day from curable diseases. The existence of >>>> capitalism is >>>> conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... >>>> that >>>> enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the >>>> pain of >>>> the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the >>>> dulling of >>>> feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. >>>> -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net >>>> >>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>> >>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: >>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>> >>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; >>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; >>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net >>> >>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net >>> >>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: >> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; >> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; >> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> >> ------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >> http://www.p2pfoundation.net >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >> http://www.p2pfoundation.net >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> > > > -- > Devin Balkind > Director, Sarapis Foundation > [email protected] > @devinbalkind > > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >
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Michel, I consider you a "decent" person as well, even though I find your statist political philosophy objectionable. I think it's unfortunate that this thread, which could have lead to a conversation about how we leverage shifting political attitudes to advance the p2p movement, turned partisan. So it goes. DWB On Nov 29, 2011, at 4:29 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi devin, absolutely did not mean to be condenscending, I swear, but I was expressing a deep unease I have, and i'm not the only one, with what with I consider anarcho-capitalism, 'as a movement or ideology', not in any way with persons in the movement, they are decent persons in nearly any social movement independent of our level of agreement with it; I'm absolutely sure that you are such a person,
Michel
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]
wrote: Natalie, we need to advance p2p within the liberty community and liberty within the p2p community. More concretely, we need to show folks how p2p production takes place in a state of liberty and a state of liberty provides the conditions necessary for p2p production.
Michel, maybe I misinterpreted the certainty in your tone with condescension.
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]
wrote: hi devin, not at all, I don't recognize that my tone is condenscending, if it appears that way, I apologize ... I'm merely saying that despite looking for commonalities, political and value conflicts cannot be wished away ... what part of the paragraphs below do you find condescending? it's basically a list of ron paul's positions I don't agree with
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]
wrote: I assume you recognize how condescending your tone is but speak this way because you derive some pleasure from engaging in partisan political conflicts. I don't. I find it endlessly frustrating.
I'm going to repeat the demands I've posted here many times before: (1) end the wars and dismantle the American empire, (2) end drug prohibition, (3) end the federal reserve bank's monopoly on the production of legal tender.
Nader gets it: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progress...
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]
wrote:
I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a movement of non-representational individuals
but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in any of the ows actions or pronouncements ...
there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr Natalie's "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's interpret things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist would accept refusing access to different races on private property grounds...
from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent of what you and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the stress is about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt takeover of corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are against consumption culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea party action I saw mentioned somewhere)
now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it,
for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official paulista demands
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]
wrote: ... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS.
Who do you think keeps camps running? People who demand things from government, or people who demand things from themselves?
OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]
wrote: hi Devin,
I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on corporate media like Fox News
BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,
for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of education, abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media,
in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these videos,
Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are impossible
Michel
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]
wrote: This is such an old paradigm conversation.
First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this person."
Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking place.
Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need to end.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where you’re going with this. It resembles polit ical control in line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences (promoting a surreptitious soci al atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a bett er society.
From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
hi natalie,
I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one ..
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been m any Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they a re there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of s peech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segr egation.
From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected]
wrote: Michel Bauwens wrote: On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes <[email protected] wrote:
Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster your goals? Where do you draw the line?
good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces such as racism, genderism, etc ..
Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is likely do to more bad than good.
Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies (while, of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it is equally 'anti-p2p'.
well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical importance in the cooperation
a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free software, and you discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her?
these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose values I object to ...
I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights about free software.
they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the whole population ..
Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me from using his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of course.
So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But on the other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is proposing to do.
I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage them from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope we agree on that?
yes
what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3 priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals, and it seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such alliances will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase acceptance for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals
at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained
Michel
Best regards Christian
-- |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- [email protected] ------- | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/ | Peer Production Everywhere: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/ |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 -- It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism is conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the pain of the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the dulling of feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible. -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
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participants (5)
-
Christian Siefkes -
Devin Balkind -
Devin Balkind -
Michel Bauwens -
Natalie Golovin