copied to the list for any extra discussants ... On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]>wrote:
Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly.
Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us though.
Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
hi Benjamin,
this promises to be very interesting,
I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale through open design cooperation ...
I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active in the field,
Michel
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]>wrote:
Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, here they are:
Sufficiency Alert
Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil.
Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the grand chaordic system that is human culture.
What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above.
Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified ROI!
[image: MetaReFi.png]
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]
wrote:
hi Ben,
I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, which your piece is,
however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to the table that wasn't there before?
I think it should have a more catchy title as well,
and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type: revaluolation!
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]>wrote:
Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production infrastructures...and underlying values.
Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you want to
take a look:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1...
It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem!
I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps..
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly. Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us though. Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture approaches, the first best group to connect with is http://www.landinstitute.org/ If you are interested in building community based agricultural enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi Benjamin,
this promises to be very interesting,
I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale through open design cooperation ...
I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active in the field,
Michel
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]> wrote:
Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, here they are:
Sufficiency Alert
Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil.
Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the grand chaordic system that is human culture.
What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above.
Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified ROI!
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi Ben,
I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, which your piece is,
however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to the table that wasn't there before?
I think it should have a more catchy title as well,
and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type: revaluolation!
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]> wrote:
Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production infrastructures...and underlying values.
> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you want to take a look: > https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1... > It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem! > I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps..
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
Hi Sam, I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person, and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered. Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe. The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage. I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will update soon! On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]>
wrote:
Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side
with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly.
Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us though. Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture approaches, the first best group to connect with is http://www.landinstitute.org/
If you are interested in building community based agricultural enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
hi Benjamin,
this promises to be very interesting,
I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of
marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale through open design cooperation ...
I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active in
the field,
Michel
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
[email protected]> wrote:
Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have allowed
some time to continue processing these ideas (and implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, here they are:
Sufficiency Alert
Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable primary
production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil.
Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge of
current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the grand chaordic system that is human culture.
What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to sketch
a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above.
Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale
development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified ROI!
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens <
[email protected]> wrote:
hi Ben,
I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, which
your piece is,
however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to
elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to the table that wasn't there before?
I think it should have a more catchy title as well,
and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type:
revaluolation!
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
[email protected]> wrote:
> > Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production infrastructures...and underlying values. > >> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you want to take a look: >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1... >> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem! >> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps..
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
Ben. The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design, branding, apparel, music, parties etc. We also need complete narratives. One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc. A friend told me last night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the message five years ago. So yes, I'm interested in marketing the free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to connect about this issue. On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Sam,
I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person, and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will update soon!
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>wrote:
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <
[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side
with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly.
Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us though. Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture approaches, the first best group to connect with is http://www.landinstitute.org/
If you are interested in building community based agricultural enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
hi Benjamin,
this promises to be very interesting,
I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of
marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale through open design cooperation ...
I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active in
the field,
Michel
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
[email protected]> wrote:
Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have allowed
some time to continue processing these ideas (and implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, here they are:
Sufficiency Alert
Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable primary
production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil.
Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge of
current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the grand chaordic system that is human culture.
What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to sketch
a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above.
Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale
development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified ROI!
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens <
[email protected]> wrote:
> > hi Ben, > > I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, which your piece is, > > however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to the table that wasn't there before? > > I think it should have a more catchy title as well, > > and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type: revaluolation! > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production infrastructures...and underlying values. >> >>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you want to take a look: >>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1... >>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem! >>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps.. > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > >
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]>wrote:
Ben. The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design, branding, apparel, music, parties etc. We also need complete narratives. One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc. A friend told me last night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the message five years ago. So yes, I'm interested in marketing the free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to connect about this issue.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Sam,
I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person, and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will update soon!
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>wrote:
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <
[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side
with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly.
Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us though. Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture approaches, the first best group to connect with is http://www.landinstitute.org/
If you are interested in building community based agricultural enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
hi Benjamin,
this promises to be very interesting,
I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of
marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale through open design cooperation ...
I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active
in the field,
Michel
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell <
[email protected]> wrote:
> > Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, here they are: > > Sufficiency Alert > > Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil. > > Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the grand chaordic system that is human culture. > > What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above. > > Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified ROI! > > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: >> >> hi Ben, >> >> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, which your piece is, >> >> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to the table that wasn't there before? >> >> I think it should have a more catchy title as well, >> >> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type: revaluolation! >> >> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production infrastructures...and underlying values. >>> >>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you want to take a look: >>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1... >>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem! >>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps.. >> >> >> -- >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> >> >> >> >> >
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
The build environment has been designed for consumers of proprietary products, not producers of free/libre/open ones. Open hardware is designed for disassembly with modular, interchangable parts while proprietary hardware is designed for assembly with unique, disposable parts. If the problem is consumerism, then I think that design IS the problem. The success of OSE will be determined by the documentation it produces. Right now the vision has been documented but the tools haven't been. Some of us will watch how it goes, others will help out as best they can. Either way, everything is voluntary so I think calling the project totalitarian is a bit of an exaggeration. On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 12:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts < [email protected]> wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
Ben. The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design, branding, apparel, music, parties etc. We also need complete narratives. One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc. A friend told me last night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the message five years ago. So yes, I'm interested in marketing the free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to connect about this issue.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Sam,
I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person, and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will update soon!
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>wrote:
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <
[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side
with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly.
Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us though. Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture approaches, the first best group to connect with is http://www.landinstitute.org/
If you are interested in building community based agricultural enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: > > hi Benjamin, > > this promises to be very interesting, > > I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale through open design cooperation ... > > I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active in the field, > > Michel > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, here they are: >> >> Sufficiency Alert >> >> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil. >> >> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the grand chaordic system that is human culture. >> >> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above. >> >> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified ROI! >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> hi Ben, >>> >>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, which your piece is, >>> >>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to the table that wasn't there before? >>> >>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well, >>> >>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type: revaluolation! >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production infrastructures...and underlying values. >>>> >>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you want to take a look: >>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1... >>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem! >>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps.. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>> >>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>> >>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > >
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
my understanding of the culture is that its openly, self-declared dictatorship (with some ugly stories from volunteers). also, in terms of technical design its a lego-block approach where all aspects of life are reduced to a set of idealized building blocks, that are interconnected only to each other that's totalitarian On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]>wrote:
The build environment has been designed for consumers of proprietary products, not producers of free/libre/open ones. Open hardware is designed for disassembly with modular, interchangable parts while proprietary hardware is designed for assembly with unique, disposable parts. If the problem is consumerism, then I think that design IS the problem.
The success of OSE will be determined by the documentation it produces. Right now the vision has been documented but the tools haven't been. Some of us will watch how it goes, others will help out as best they can. Either way, everything is voluntary so I think calling the project totalitarian is a bit of an exaggeration.
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 12:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts < [email protected]> wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
Ben. The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design, branding, apparel, music, parties etc. We also need complete narratives. One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc. A friend told me last night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the message five years ago. So yes, I'm interested in marketing the free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to connect about this issue.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Sam,
I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person, and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will update soon!
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>wrote:
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <
[email protected]> wrote:
> > Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly. > Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us though. > Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b >
In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture approaches, the first best group to connect with is http://www.landinstitute.org/
If you are interested in building community based agricultural enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: >> >> hi Benjamin, >> >> this promises to be very interesting, >> >> I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale through open design cooperation ... >> >> I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active in the field, >> >> Michel >> >> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, here they are: >>> >>> Sufficiency Alert >>> >>> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil. >>> >>> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the grand chaordic system that is human culture. >>> >>> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above. >>> >>> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified ROI! >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> hi Ben, >>>> >>>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, which your piece is, >>>> >>>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to the table that wasn't there before? >>>> >>>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well, >>>> >>>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type: revaluolation! >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production infrastructures...and underlying values. >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you want to take a look: >>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1... >>>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem! >>>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps.. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>>> >>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>>> >>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> >> >> >> >> >
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
hi Nicholas, can you elaborate on that critique? have you written anything else on it? there are some quite heavy accusations in here ... totalitarianism, fetish, which would need some backup <g> Michel On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts < [email protected]> wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
Ben. The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design, branding, apparel, music, parties etc. We also need complete narratives. One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc. A friend told me last night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the message five years ago. So yes, I'm interested in marketing the free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to connect about this issue.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Sam,
I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person, and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will update soon!
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>wrote:
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <
[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side
with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly.
Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us though. Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b
In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture approaches, the first best group to connect with is http://www.landinstitute.org/
If you are interested in building community based agricultural enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: > > hi Benjamin, > > this promises to be very interesting, > > I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale through open design cooperation ... > > I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active in the field, > > Michel > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, here they are: >> >> Sufficiency Alert >> >> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil. >> >> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the grand chaordic system that is human culture. >> >> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above. >> >> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified ROI! >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> hi Ben, >>> >>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, which your piece is, >>> >>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to the table that wasn't there before? >>> >>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well, >>> >>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type: revaluolation! >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production infrastructures...and underlying values. >>>> >>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you want to take a look: >>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1... >>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem! >>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps.. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>> >>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>> >>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > >
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
why does the OSE exclude actually existing open-source, public domain technologies i.e. crafts such as wood work, knitting and fabrics, gardening, fermenting, cooking, animal husbandry etc? these largely oral traditions defy easy modelling, try and do a Blender file for a mandella garden or a food forest ? there is a wealth of traditional knowledge that is being lost and has substantially more value than a top down techno-utopian benevolent dictatorship in nearly all fields of human endeavour now, there is a festish for computerization, automation, virtualization and modelling in finance, science, economics, architecture there is a market advantage to being able to present a gee-whiz computer model, an interactive graphic, something that looks good on a screen or in CAD we've come a very long way from the back-to-the-land movement of the 60s and 70s - which was inspired by and inspired works like Christopher Alexanders A Pattern Language - which was based on living patterns from nature, from existing human settlements the engineering approach to life is reaching a fundamental limitation, the earth is overloaded by human machine like designs and their manifestations i.e a stream becomes a culverted drain, a lake becomes a hydro-electric power generating dam, a food forest becomes a plantation, and now a village becomes a lego set On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
hi Nicholas, can you elaborate on that critique? have you written anything else on it?
there are some quite heavy accusations in here ... totalitarianism, fetish, which would need some backup <g>
Michel
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts < [email protected]> wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
Ben. The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design, branding, apparel, music, parties etc. We also need complete narratives. One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc. A friend told me last night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the message five years ago. So yes, I'm interested in marketing the free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to connect about this issue.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Sam,
I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person, and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will update soon!
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>wrote:
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
copied to the list for any extra discussants ...
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell <
[email protected]> wrote:
> > Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly. > Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us though. > Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b >
In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture approaches, the first best group to connect with is http://www.landinstitute.org/
If you are interested in building community based agricultural enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: >> >> hi Benjamin, >> >> this promises to be very interesting, >> >> I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale through open design cooperation ... >> >> I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active in the field, >> >> Michel >> >> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, here they are: >>> >>> Sufficiency Alert >>> >>> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil. >>> >>> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the grand chaordic system that is human culture. >>> >>> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above. >>> >>> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified ROI! >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> hi Ben, >>>> >>>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, which your piece is, >>>> >>>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to the table that wasn't there before? >>>> >>>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well, >>>> >>>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type: revaluolation! >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production infrastructures...and underlying values. >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you want to take a look: >>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1... >>>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem! >>>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps.. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>>> >>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>>> >>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> >> >> >> >> >
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
Nicholas, why don't you document all these "actually open-source" technologies in a semantic mediawiki (OSE, P2P-F, Sarapis, etc) and we can then all work together to integrate them into the rapidly developing free/libre/opensource knowledge commons. I love ethnographies and think that the return to crafting is the key to a decent future. I link people to Useful Work vs. Useless Toil<http://www.marxists.org/archive/morris/works/1884/useful.htm>all the time. I also like legos. No one here is stopping you from scratching your own itch. On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Nicholas Roberts <[email protected]
wrote:
why does the OSE exclude actually existing open-source, public domain technologies i.e. crafts such as wood work, knitting and fabrics, gardening, fermenting, cooking, animal husbandry etc?
these largely oral traditions defy easy modelling, try and do a Blender file for a mandella garden or a food forest ? there is a wealth of traditional knowledge that is being lost and has substantially more value than a top down techno-utopian benevolent dictatorship
in nearly all fields of human endeavour now, there is a festish for computerization, automation, virtualization and modelling
in finance, science, economics, architecture there is a market advantage to being able to present a gee-whiz computer model, an interactive graphic, something that looks good on a screen or in CAD
we've come a very long way from the back-to-the-land movement of the 60s and 70s - which was inspired by and inspired works like Christopher Alexanders A Pattern Language - which was based on living patterns from nature, from existing human settlements
the engineering approach to life is reaching a fundamental limitation, the earth is overloaded by human machine like designs and their manifestations i.e a stream becomes a culverted drain, a lake becomes a hydro-electric power generating dam, a food forest becomes a plantation, and now a village becomes a lego set
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
hi Nicholas, can you elaborate on that critique? have you written anything else on it?
there are some quite heavy accusations in here ... totalitarianism, fetish, which would need some backup <g>
Michel
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts < [email protected]> wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
Ben. The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design, branding, apparel, music, parties etc. We also need complete narratives. One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc. A friend told me last night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the message five years ago. So yes, I'm interested in marketing the free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to connect about this issue.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]
wrote:
Hi Sam,
I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person, and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will update soon!
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>wrote:
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: > > copied to the list for any extra discussants ... > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the side with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly. >> Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my twitte stream at v17us though. >> Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b >>
In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture approaches, the first best group to connect with is http://www.landinstitute.org/
If you are interested in building community based agricultural enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> hi Benjamin, >>> >>> this promises to be very interesting, >>> >>> I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale through open design cooperation ... >>> >>> I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been active in the field, >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, here they are: >>>> >>>> Sufficiency Alert >>>> >>>> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil. >>>> >>>> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the grand chaordic system that is human culture. >>>> >>>> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above. >>>> >>>> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified ROI! >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> hi Ben, >>>>> >>>>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, which your piece is, >>>>> >>>>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to the table that wasn't there before? >>>>> >>>>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well, >>>>> >>>>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type: revaluolation! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production infrastructures...and underlying values. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you want to take a look: >>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1... >>>>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem! >>>>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>>>> >>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>>>> >>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>> >>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>> >>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > >
-- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
ok, watch this space http://industrialpermaculture.org On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]>wrote:
Nicholas, why don't you document all these "actually open-source" technologies in a semantic mediawiki (OSE, P2P-F, Sarapis, etc) and we can then all work together to integrate them into the rapidly developing free/libre/opensource knowledge commons.
I love ethnographies and think that the return to crafting is the key to a decent future. I link people to Useful Work vs. Useless Toil<http://www.marxists.org/archive/morris/works/1884/useful.htm>all the time. I also like legos. No one here is stopping you from scratching your own itch.
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Nicholas Roberts < [email protected]> wrote:
why does the OSE exclude actually existing open-source, public domain technologies i.e. crafts such as wood work, knitting and fabrics, gardening, fermenting, cooking, animal husbandry etc?
these largely oral traditions defy easy modelling, try and do a Blender file for a mandella garden or a food forest ? there is a wealth of traditional knowledge that is being lost and has substantially more value than a top down techno-utopian benevolent dictatorship
in nearly all fields of human endeavour now, there is a festish for computerization, automation, virtualization and modelling
in finance, science, economics, architecture there is a market advantage to being able to present a gee-whiz computer model, an interactive graphic, something that looks good on a screen or in CAD
we've come a very long way from the back-to-the-land movement of the 60s and 70s - which was inspired by and inspired works like Christopher Alexanders A Pattern Language - which was based on living patterns from nature, from existing human settlements
the engineering approach to life is reaching a fundamental limitation, the earth is overloaded by human machine like designs and their manifestations i.e a stream becomes a culverted drain, a lake becomes a hydro-electric power generating dam, a food forest becomes a plantation, and now a village becomes a lego set
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]
wrote:
hi Nicholas, can you elaborate on that critique? have you written anything else on it?
there are some quite heavy accusations in here ... totalitarianism, fetish, which would need some backup <g>
Michel
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts < [email protected]> wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
Ben. The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design, branding, apparel, music, parties etc. We also need complete narratives. One reason I was so drawn to OSE<http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html>is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc. A friend told me last night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the message five years ago. So yes, I'm interested in marketing the free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to connect about this issue.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Sam,
I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person, and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will update soon!
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > copied to the list for any extra discussants ... > > > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the > side with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of > Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let > me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more > complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in > poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly. > >> Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to > share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm > thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable > circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, > spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my > twitte stream at v17us though. > >> Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with > anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b > >> > > > In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture > approaches, the first best group to connect with is > http://www.landinstitute.org/ > > If you are interested in building community based agricultural > enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing > ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/ > > > > > > >> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> hi Benjamin, > >>> > >>> this promises to be very interesting, > >>> > >>> I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of > marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale > through open design cooperation ... > >>> > >>> I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been > active in the field, > >>> > >>> Michel > >>> > >>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have > allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and > implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting > opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy > surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into > many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real > foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, > I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter > paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, > here they are: > >>>> > >>>> Sufficiency Alert > >>>> > >>>> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable > primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger > play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a > clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant > control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets > now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand > for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, > conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial > agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil. > >>>> > >>>> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge > of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful > (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically > re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production > is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, > perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are > fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the > grand chaordic system that is human culture. > >>>> > >>>> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to > sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within > current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of > higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an > excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) > over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has > noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic > activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious > containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above. > >>>> > >>>> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale > development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are > scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, > they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they > are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median > standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules > are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively > expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial > society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible > surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal > value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified > ROI! > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> hi Ben, > >>>>> > >>>>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, > which your piece is, > >>>>> > >>>>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to > elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, > you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to > know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to > the table that wasn't there before? > >>>>> > >>>>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well, > >>>>> > >>>>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type: > revaluolation! > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it > is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let > me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions > to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production > infrastructures...and underlying values. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you > want to take a look: > >>>>>>> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1... > >>>>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but > if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and > leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem! > >>>>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some > wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps.. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > >>>>> > >>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >>>>> > >>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; > http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > >>> > >>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >>> > >>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; > http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; > http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > -- > Sam Rose > Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 > email: [email protected] > http://hollymeadcapital.com > http://p2pfoundation.net > http://futureforwardinstitute.com > http://socialmediaclassroom.com > > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human > ambition." - Carl Sagan >
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Nicholas Roberts <[email protected]> wrote:
why does the OSE exclude actually existing open-source, public domain technologies i.e. crafts such as wood work, knitting and fabrics, gardening, fermenting, cooking, animal husbandry etc?
these largely oral traditions defy easy modelling, try and do a Blender file for a mandella garden or a food forest ? there is a wealth of traditional knowledge that is being lost and has substantially more value than a top down techno-utopian benevolent dictatorship
In fairness, OSE has an on-site permaculture operation. To the extent that OSE focuses on computerized machine tool technologies, it would probably be nice for it to establish stronger ties with those occupying craft niches in the larger network ecology or division of labor (e.g. the craft community at Mountain View, Ark.). -- Kevin Carson Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism http://mutualist.blogspot.com The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Nicholas Roberts <[email protected]> wrote:
why does the OSE exclude actually existing open-source, public domain technologies i.e. crafts such as wood work, knitting and fabrics, gardening, fermenting, cooking, animal husbandry etc?
these largely oral traditions defy easy modelling, try and do a Blender file for a mandella garden or a food forest ? there is a wealth of traditional knowledge that is being lost and has substantially more value than a top down techno-utopian benevolent dictatorship
::cough:: ::cough:: http://www.appropedia.org/Welcome_to_Appropedia ::cough:: ::cough::
in nearly all fields of human endeavour now, there is a festish for computerization, automation, virtualization and modelling
Repitition Leads to Boredom. Boredom leads to making mistakes. Mistakes make you yearn for the time when you were merely bored....
in finance, science, economics, architecture there is a market advantage to being able to present a gee-whiz computer model, an interactive graphic, something that looks good on a screen or in CAD
There is also an advantage to people around the world being able share and collaborate around digital representations of objects
we've come a very long way from the back-to-the-land movement of the 60s and 70s - which was inspired by and inspired works like Christopher Alexanders A Pattern Language - which was based on living patterns from nature, from existing human settlements
the engineering approach to life is reaching a fundamental limitation, the earth is overloaded by human machine like designs and their manifestations i.e a stream becomes a culverted drain, a lake becomes a hydro-electric power generating dam, a food forest becomes a plantation, and now a village becomes a lego set
I agree that everything does not need engineering.
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi Nicholas, can you elaborate on that critique? have you written anything else on it?
there are some quite heavy accusations in here ... totalitarianism, fetish, which would need some backup <g>
Michel
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Nicholas Roberts <[email protected]> wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]> wrote:
Ben. The free/libre/opensource movement needs to communicate more strategically with the public: marketing materials, user-friendly design, branding, apparel, music, parties etc. We also need complete narratives. One reason I was so drawn to OSE is that the project had such a complete story that fits within a comfortable narratives: high-tech homestead, DY farming, etc. A friend told me last night how she thought the concept of 'recycling' has prepared the public to understand open source and that people wouldn't be able to comprehend the message five years ago. So yes, I'm interested in marketing the free/libre/opensource movement to the mainstream public and would love to connect about this issue.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Benjamin Brownell <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Sam,
I respect the committed work at knowledge centers like the Land Institute, and P2PF here. I met Wes Jackson 10 or 12 years ago and was really awed by his mild, strong and principled demeanor, doing something very different in and for 'the heartland' of US and our pastoral production paradigms. And there is certainly proof-of-concept scattered about in coop and other forms, worldwide. I've visited a range of experimental sites and parleyed with many outstanding individuals and groups on the roads to integrally sound human existence. I've indulged my own vision for a safe sane supportive space, through land-based community studies and participation over several years and ecoregions, with the aim to share compelling stories in a kind of improv road-show and online diary (and tracking what others have done in this regard). I am an impatient person, and we are faced with urgent, growing, challenges. Even stepping back to a more academic/historical view, there's a lot of repatterning and propagation to carry out quickly. I just don't see the open knowledge program hitting home on its own--even missionary zeal has only afforded an approximately linear outreach. Net tech is a key new part of the program, but there still seems a large quantum barrier before the mainstream picks up. This is a competitive cultural evolution, and like it or not in important ways we're all effectively one culture now, float or flunk. That culture has leverage points though, if we look close at how it has been seduced and constrained toward current dysfunctions. This can be transverse-engineered.
Let's posit that there is a potential for tremendous demand/appreciation growth across demographics for sustainable culture forms that are not unrecognizable from within current system. Let's agree that the more people we can see heading in that general direction, shifting their attention, their inquiry, action and investment, the better for all. Let's say we don't have a half-century to watch this unfold 'organically' (not that I have any rigorous forecasts here, but certainly there's risk of agonizing sloth and stickiness). I see a challenge and opportunity to co-opt the mechanisms of market promotion for good. This is in fact selling people on 'something they didn't even know they needed' and yet it's also a product which, experientially, can 'sell itself' too--once it reaches people where they are at. That's the crux really, raising visibility and viability and fecundity of alternatives, in a competitive, contaminated, cultural landscape. This has a lot to do with money, media, and make-believe.
The discussion gets ethically queasy in a hurry, and if you take it all that seriously, it's probably going to force you to look away and stick with familiar staid method. It's beyond serious--it's the future of everything we identify with; but in a way this is also a game, and I suggest that the real results we get from playing enlightendly within the rules for a new set of goals, are definitive. Also, I'm not here to connive and convince anyone about ends justifying means, I want to present a personal perspective and a way forward that makes clear sense to who I am and what my unique background could provide for a powerful parallel track of transition, one that I do believe at this point is critical. If it adds up to some interest or seems worthy of strategic evaluation, please continue to engage.
I am writing out more of the ideas that come up for me in contemplation here, and some features in the emerging web-world that hold promise. I'd really like to have a live chat and sketch session on this range of topics with any/all of you soon. Let me first perhaps gather some instructive links to share for a better image of new tactics at work in some of the ways I imagine...I'm still away from my regular workspace a day or two, but will update soon!
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: > > copied to the list for any extra discussants ... > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Brownell > <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Yes, thank you Michel, I could use a bit more discussion on the >> side with this! I believe I have connected briefly with Nicholas (of >> Permaculture.coop yes?) and mean to indicate his projects in the piece. Let >> me keep fitting in some specific ideas/applications/examples to give a more >> complete picture in a couple of days...any thoughts welcome although I am in >> poor contact for the weekend ahead mostly. >> Sam, Steve, Nick hello--I haven't got much personal context to >> share as introduction at the moment ('profile') which is maybe why I'm >> thinking so hard about cultural reconfig towards more amenable >> circumstance...but wide backgrounding in media, community, design, science, >> spirit, sport; and speculation :) You might intuit some things from my >> twitte stream at v17us though. >> Happy to expand in chat or do a little co-writing/drawing with >> anyone interested! Pac Time, US skype:sola2b >>
In my humble opinion, if you are truly interested in Permaculture approaches, the first best group to connect with is http://www.landinstitute.org/
If you are interested in building community based agricultural enterprises around permaculture, that can work now in the existing ecology, check http://www.organicvalley.coop/
>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> hi Benjamin, >>> >>> this promises to be very interesting, >>> >>> I think they are at least some people that share your concerns of >>> marrying eco-agriculture, with p2p social systems, and that can scale >>> through open design cooperation ... >>> >>> I hope you don't mind I put some people in cc that have been >>> active in the field, >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Benjamin Brownell >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Michel, thank you for the response--very fair points. I have >>>> allowed some time to continue processing these ideas (and >>>> implications/applications), and begun a more focused article suggesting >>>> opportunities for integration of the new peer IT capabilities with healthy >>>> surplus-oriented food production. A complicated subject that still ties into >>>> many others...but one I feel is not getting adequate attention as the real >>>> foundation (and weakpoint) of transition to stable social systems. Anyhow, >>>> I'm still pulling things together, but if you'd like to look at some starter >>>> paragraphs and a diagram to see if it may be more on track for publication, >>>> here they are: >>>> >>>> Sufficiency Alert >>>> >>>> Please let’s come to the table. Subsistence is basic. Stable >>>> primary production of safe complete foods is severely lagging in the larger >>>> play for a peer-oriented economy at present, and this ‘pinch point’ is a >>>> clear target of exploitation and mismanagement by new and old malignant >>>> control structures. Agricultural land is bubbling on international markets >>>> now; water, genomic and sundry ecocidal shenanigans are spreading. Demand >>>> for food is non-negotiable, and trumps all kinds of ethical, democratic, >>>> conscientious preference: without viable alternatives in place, industrial >>>> agri-facture is more omnipotent than oil. >>>> >>>> Models for sustainable transition bifurcate around the challenge >>>> of current centralizations in society, advocating towards equally fanciful >>>> (in scaling) extremum of dark/bright green, where food is either radically >>>> re-localized and re-personalized (think homestead + barter), or production >>>> is further concentrated in efficient enclosed modular sun-fueled terrariums, >>>> perhaps as a sort of next-gen municipal service. Both routes are >>>> fundamentally challenged by under-acknowledged economic realities, and the >>>> grand chaordic system that is human culture. >>>> >>>> What kind of realistic middle road could we open up? I want to >>>> sketch a program for rapidly scaling polyvictual production centers within >>>> current land use/tenure and market regulations, as an agile catalyst of >>>> higher-order peer economics for resilient diversity. Permaculture is an >>>> excellent application framework, tried and true (and intentionally evolving) >>>> over 30 years in a range of circumstance. But as founder Bill Mollison has >>>> noted, it’s intrinsic sufficiency is paradoxically dampening to economic >>>> activity and integration with larger systematics. It is a salubrious >>>> containerized steady state, rather in line with ‘dark green’ outlook, above. >>>> >>>> Permaculture, transition, global/eco-villaging, human-scale >>>> development, are all sound models that hold up well in practice. They are >>>> scalable, but they’re not meant to scale--it is not a built-in property, >>>> they are cultural introverts. As opt-in (/out) ethical leisure-fests, they >>>> are in fact self-marginalizing and proto-apocalyptic from the median >>>> standpoint. Culture is a competitive field, where presently the old rules >>>> are perceptibly moribund. This is an immense opportunity to creatively >>>> expand play. But how to build bridges and hold hands with a vastly inertial >>>> society, and truly lead forward? There has got to be a rich and accessible >>>> surplus from the new territory, in conventional terms, and a reciprocal >>>> value/appreciation towards the old. We need liquid capital, and a dummified >>>> ROI! >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Michel Bauwens >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> hi Ben, >>>>> >>>>> I"m generally an easy editor as long as the piece is readable, >>>>> which your piece is, >>>>> >>>>> however, if there is a main thesis, I feel it is a bit to >>>>> elliptically described, so perhaps somewhere, perhaps as an intro paragraph, >>>>> you should make sure that your main point is summarized; I'd also like to >>>>> know as reader, what new things this new wave of platforms is bringing to >>>>> the table that wasn't there before? >>>>> >>>>> I think it should have a more catchy title as well, >>>>> >>>>> and finally, that last word, is that on purpose, or a type: >>>>> revaluolation! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Benjamin Brownell >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Curious if you have looked at this yet? I can understand if it >>>>>> is not solid enough for Foundation blog, or even for easy feedback...but let >>>>>> me know if you have some idea to proceed. I will keep exploring directions >>>>>> to bridge collectivism into the 'ordinary' - obese societal production >>>>>> infrastructures...and underlying values. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Michel, I've collected some thoughts in a doc here, if you >>>>>>> want to take a look: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10BgjvyNuie_1oMtkb4Li9ZVzAUSei_1uwivvzkz1... >>>>>>> It's kind of far reaching and preachy, I couldn't help...but >>>>>>> if there are just a couple parts you would prefer to get more detail on, and >>>>>>> leave the rest for me to put elsewhere, let me know--no problem! >>>>>>> I hope it can lead to a bit more discussion, and then some >>>>>>> wiki editing, and even solid tests and steps.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>>>> >>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: >>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>>>> >>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; >>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; >>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>> >>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: >>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>> >>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; >>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; >>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; > http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > >
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"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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-- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
I agree that everything does not need engineering.
But good engineering drastically reduces the human footprint on the planet. In any case, although I know Marcin sees OSE as as model that pushes the overall boundaries of local autarky as far as it will go, it seems to me that his real place in the division of labor is pushing micromanufacturing and raw materials autarky as far as it will go. He's still definitely part of a larger ecology that includes stuff not being done at Factor e Farm. -- Kevin Carson Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism http://mutualist.blogspot.com The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
thanks Kevin, I think this is the best attitude, i.e. recognizing limitations and quirks of the project, as with any project, but seeing how they fit in a larger ecology of solutions, where they definitely have a (important?) place ... Michel On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Kevin Carson < [email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
I agree that everything does not need engineering.
But good engineering drastically reduces the human footprint on the planet.
In any case, although I know Marcin sees OSE as as model that pushes the overall boundaries of local autarky as far as it will go, it seems to me that his real place in the division of labor is pushing micromanufacturing and raw materials autarky as far as it will go. He's still definitely part of a larger ecology that includes stuff not being done at Factor e Farm.
-- Kevin Carson Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism http://mutualist.blogspot.com The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
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Nicholas, The importance of OSE is not primarily in what is being produced, but *how* it is being produced. The knowledge of production is being openly shared with the expressed goal of replication and abundance. Doing this is just as useful for producing food forests as it is for tractors. If you see that traditional knowledge is disappearing then you only need to document and share it to stop that from happening. -Karl
good point .. the whole point of the appropriate technology movement in the 70s was I believe that traditional knowledge was becoming a bit stale, non-evolutive, and had to be revived ... On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Karl Robillard <[email protected]>wrote:
Nicholas,
The importance of OSE is not primarily in what is being produced, but *how* it is being produced. The knowledge of production is being openly shared with the expressed goal of replication and abundance. Doing this is just as useful for producing food forests as it is for tractors. If you see that traditional knowledge is disappearing then you only need to document and share it to stop that from happening.
-Karl
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On 28/07/11 09:20, Karl Robillard wrote:
Nicholas,
The importance of OSE is not primarily in what is being produced, but *how* it is being produced. The knowledge of production is being openly shared with the expressed goal of replication and abundance. Doing this is just as useful for producing food forests as it is for tractors. If you see that traditional knowledge is disappearing then you only need to document and share it to stop that from happening.
For info / some related implications, from a different perspective. The latter part - especially "... then you only ..." - parallels a common and widespread conception of traditional knowledge that is problematic, in its reduction, at least insofar as the context of indigenous people is concerned. It ignores the material and physical reality of knowledge as doing: traditional knowledge is practices embedded in bio-cultural systems -- not merely information that can be documented ex-situ. It is precisely this reduced conception of traditional knowledge - i.e. that it can be documented to protect it - that many indigenous movements and empathetic researchers are arguing and working against, because it is devastating to many communities (another set of socio-economic conflicts arises from the so-called benefit sharing that accompanies this approach, but that is a tangent here). It is a conception manifested in the UN, WIPO, state and corporate "intellectual property" approaches to the "protection" of traditional knowledge. Indeed, it forms central part of contemporary international political economy - and market expansion - as it has the purpose of spreading the very the idea of private, exclusive ownership of knowledge and intellectual property generally, while seeking credibility through "protection" of minorities and vulnerable groups, whose cultures in turn are undermined as market relations or the cash economy advances onto their territory. The protection myth, in this context, functions to extract information (recipes, species info etc.) from knowledge practices, but let's the bio-cultural systems in which they exist wither. Some background info here: http://biocultural.iied.org/ Documenting some "knowledge" does nothing automagically for a knowledge practice, except that in the case of traditional, medicinal knowledge practices, it - with obvious intentions and effects - facilitates commercialisation of the information extracted from a given knowledge practice. Museums are full of dead knowledge. In other words, you can document as much, say, shamanic knowledge as you like, but if there is no access to forest, land and the required resources - i.e. bio-cultural systems - in which those knowledge practices traditionally unfold, then it is merely information in an abstract form on paper (or in bits). If you want to preserve knowledge practices about living on and with the land - i.e. about growing stuff - then the first step is to secure access to land in order to be able to practice. Knowing by description how to grow something won't put food on the table unless there is land to practice on. Knowing by acquaintance won't either, hence many cultures facing land grabs, deforestation, climate change etc. are losing their traditional knowledge not because it is no longer known, or undocumented, but simply because they become uprooted and have nowhere to grow, to end on ecologicals metaphors. -martin
I don't think you're making an argument against documentation, but you are making an argument for access to resources. I consider knowledge a resource and it's documentation one of many ways to make that resource useable. The following is from the website you cited: *Example: The Potato Park community biocultural database (Peru)*
A database of potato varieties and biocultural systems became necessary to hold the information collected by communities through action research. The database uses free (open source) software to administer data entry, access and use, since this is compatible with customary practices of free and open sharing of knowledge. The free software DRUPAL platform is creating a database based on three Andean principles of reciprocity, duality and equilibrium. The database also uses GIS technology and audiovisual equipment for recording resources and knowledge.
http://biocultural.iied.org/tools/community-biocultural-registers Since there is no link to the dataset and considering your post, I'm wondering whether you think this database should be public and accessible via the internet. On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:35 AM, jmp <[email protected]> wrote:
On 28/07/11 09:20, Karl Robillard wrote:
Nicholas,
The importance of OSE is not primarily in what is being produced, but *how* it is being produced. The knowledge of production is being openly shared with the expressed goal of replication and abundance. Doing this is just as useful for producing food forests as it is for tractors. If you see that traditional knowledge is disappearing then you only need to document and share it to stop that from happening.
For info / some related implications, from a different perspective.
The latter part - especially "... then you only ..." - parallels a common and widespread conception of traditional knowledge that is problematic, in its reduction, at least insofar as the context of indigenous people is concerned. It ignores the material and physical reality of knowledge as doing: traditional knowledge is practices embedded in bio-cultural systems -- not merely information that can be documented ex-situ.
It is precisely this reduced conception of traditional knowledge - i.e. that it can be documented to protect it - that many indigenous movements and empathetic researchers are arguing and working against, because it is devastating to many communities (another set of socio-economic conflicts arises from the so-called benefit sharing that accompanies this approach, but that is a tangent here).
It is a conception manifested in the UN, WIPO, state and corporate "intellectual property" approaches to the "protection" of traditional knowledge. Indeed, it forms central part of contemporary international political economy - and market expansion - as it has the purpose of spreading the very the idea of private, exclusive ownership of knowledge and intellectual property generally, while seeking credibility through "protection" of minorities and vulnerable groups, whose cultures in turn are undermined as market relations or the cash economy advances onto their territory. The protection myth, in this context, functions to extract information (recipes, species info etc.) from knowledge practices, but let's the bio-cultural systems in which they exist wither. Some background info here: http://biocultural.iied.org/
Documenting some "knowledge" does nothing automagically for a knowledge practice, except that in the case of traditional, medicinal knowledge practices, it - with obvious intentions and effects - facilitates commercialisation of the information extracted from a given knowledge practice. Museums are full of dead knowledge.
In other words, you can document as much, say, shamanic knowledge as you like, but if there is no access to forest, land and the required resources - i.e. bio-cultural systems - in which those knowledge practices traditionally unfold, then it is merely information in an abstract form on paper (or in bits).
If you want to preserve knowledge practices about living on and with the land - i.e. about growing stuff - then the first step is to secure access to land in order to be able to practice. Knowing by description how to grow something won't put food on the table unless there is land to practice on. Knowing by acquaintance won't either, hence many cultures facing land grabs, deforestation, climate change etc. are losing their traditional knowledge not because it is no longer known, or undocumented, but simply because they become uprooted and have nowhere to grow, to end on ecologicals metaphors.
-martin
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-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
Hi Devin, THere is indeed a long tradition of traditional people using documentation and networks to further their cause, for them as for us, it's part of an arsenal of means they can use, but the context of technology use matters, i.e. is it under their own control, or not, is it used or not, for the benefit of outside forces, Michael Gurstein, at OKCON11, pointed to some famous case studies where 'open documentation' was used preferentially by those already privileged, thus increasing rather than decreasing power differentials... Michel On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]
wrote:
I don't think you're making an argument against documentation, but you are making an argument for access to resources. I consider knowledge a resource and it's documentation one of many ways to make that resource useable.
The following is from the website you cited:
*Example: The Potato Park community biocultural database (Peru)*
A database of potato varieties and biocultural systems became necessary to hold the information collected by communities through action research. The database uses free (open source) software to administer data entry, access and use, since this is compatible with customary practices of free and open sharing of knowledge. The free software DRUPAL platform is creating a database based on three Andean principles of reciprocity, duality and equilibrium. The database also uses GIS technology and audiovisual equipment for recording resources and knowledge.
http://biocultural.iied.org/tools/community-biocultural-registers
Since there is no link to the dataset and considering your post, I'm wondering whether you think this database should be public and accessible via the internet.
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:35 AM, jmp <[email protected]> wrote:
On 28/07/11 09:20, Karl Robillard wrote:
Nicholas,
The importance of OSE is not primarily in what is being produced, but *how* it is being produced. The knowledge of production is being openly shared with the expressed goal of replication and abundance. Doing this is just as useful for producing food forests as it is for tractors. If you see that traditional knowledge is disappearing then you only need to document and share it to stop that from happening.
For info / some related implications, from a different perspective.
The latter part - especially "... then you only ..." - parallels a common and widespread conception of traditional knowledge that is problematic, in its reduction, at least insofar as the context of indigenous people is concerned. It ignores the material and physical reality of knowledge as doing: traditional knowledge is practices embedded in bio-cultural systems -- not merely information that can be documented ex-situ.
It is precisely this reduced conception of traditional knowledge - i.e. that it can be documented to protect it - that many indigenous movements and empathetic researchers are arguing and working against, because it is devastating to many communities (another set of socio-economic conflicts arises from the so-called benefit sharing that accompanies this approach, but that is a tangent here).
It is a conception manifested in the UN, WIPO, state and corporate "intellectual property" approaches to the "protection" of traditional knowledge. Indeed, it forms central part of contemporary international political economy - and market expansion - as it has the purpose of spreading the very the idea of private, exclusive ownership of knowledge and intellectual property generally, while seeking credibility through "protection" of minorities and vulnerable groups, whose cultures in turn are undermined as market relations or the cash economy advances onto their territory. The protection myth, in this context, functions to extract information (recipes, species info etc.) from knowledge practices, but let's the bio-cultural systems in which they exist wither. Some background info here: http://biocultural.iied.org/
Documenting some "knowledge" does nothing automagically for a knowledge practice, except that in the case of traditional, medicinal knowledge practices, it - with obvious intentions and effects - facilitates commercialisation of the information extracted from a given knowledge practice. Museums are full of dead knowledge.
In other words, you can document as much, say, shamanic knowledge as you like, but if there is no access to forest, land and the required resources - i.e. bio-cultural systems - in which those knowledge practices traditionally unfold, then it is merely information in an abstract form on paper (or in bits).
If you want to preserve knowledge practices about living on and with the land - i.e. about growing stuff - then the first step is to secure access to land in order to be able to practice. Knowing by description how to grow something won't put food on the table unless there is land to practice on. Knowing by acquaintance won't either, hence many cultures facing land grabs, deforestation, climate change etc. are losing their traditional knowledge not because it is no longer known, or undocumented, but simply because they become uprooted and have nowhere to grow, to end on ecologicals metaphors.
-martin
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-- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind
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Michel and all, Thanks for the pointer Michel but I'm not sure that those examples are very pertinent in this context. I think that indigenous traditional knowledge as has been pointed out is highly contextual as is its documentation or formalization and is quite different in form and substance from "open information/open data" as we in western developed countries understand this. One element of this knowledge is that there may be cultural restrictions on its access/use within the specific cultural context i.e. there may be cultural limitions on who can use what knowledge and for what purposes and to disregard these limitations/practices without full regard for the owners of the traditional knowledge is not only deeply disrespectful but it might be very destructive of the local culture and even on the knowledge that is being "captured". One other important consideration here is that for many indigenous peoples their knowledge may be a resource, in many cases the only resource available to them in providing a means for participating in the larger society. Thus calls/demands for "open knowledge" in these instances may be an updated form of colonialism -- acting in such a way as to deprive indigenous people of the opportunity to take some material advantage of their cultural and environment parallel to similar processes where other resources such as land or raw materials might similarly have been stolen by outsiders. I would personally be very cautious in any attempt to transpose notions of "open" or even p2p directly to traditional/indigenous societies without first undertaking a major process of cultural understanding and translation. Best, Mike -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Michel Bauwens Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 2:43 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Cc: nina Subject: Re: [P2P-F] a new type of platform? Hi Devin, THere is indeed a long tradition of traditional people using documentation and networks to further their cause, for them as for us, it's part of an arsenal of means they can use, but the context of technology use matters, i.e. is it under their own control, or not, is it used or not, for the benefit of outside forces, Michael Gurstein, at OKCON11, pointed to some famous case studies where 'open documentation' was used preferentially by those already privileged, thus increasing rather than decreasing power differentials... Michel On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Devin Balkind <[email protected]> wrote: I don't think you're making an argument against documentation, but you are making an argument for access to resources. I consider knowledge a resource and it's documentation one of many ways to make that resource useable. The following is from the website you cited: Example: The Potato Park community biocultural database (Peru) A database of potato varieties and biocultural systems became necessary to hold the information collected by communities through action research. The database uses free (open source) software to administer data entry, access and use, since this is compatible with customary practices of free and open sharing of knowledge. The free software DRUPAL platform is creating a database based on three Andean principles of reciprocity, duality and equilibrium. The database also uses GIS technology and audiovisual equipment for recording resources and knowledge. http://biocultural.iied.org/tools/community-biocultural-registers Since there is no link to the dataset and considering your post, I'm wondering whether you think this database should be public and accessible via the internet. On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:35 AM, jmp <[email protected]> wrote: On 28/07/11 09:20, Karl Robillard wrote:
Nicholas,
The importance of OSE is not primarily in what is being produced, but *how* it is being produced. The knowledge of production is being openly shared with the expressed goal of replication and abundance. Doing this is just as useful for producing food forests as it is for tractors. If you see that traditional knowledge is disappearing then you only need to document and share it to stop that from happening.
For info / some related implications, from a different perspective. The latter part - especially "... then you only ..." - parallels a common and widespread conception of traditional knowledge that is problematic, in its reduction, at least insofar as the context of indigenous people is concerned. It ignores the material and physical reality of knowledge as doing: traditional knowledge is practices embedded in bio-cultural systems -- not merely information that can be documented ex-situ. It is precisely this reduced conception of traditional knowledge - i.e. that it can be documented to protect it - that many indigenous movements and empathetic researchers are arguing and working against, because it is devastating to many communities (another set of socio-economic conflicts arises from the so-called benefit sharing that accompanies this approach, but that is a tangent here). It is a conception manifested in the UN, WIPO, state and corporate "intellectual property" approaches to the "protection" of traditional knowledge. Indeed, it forms central part of contemporary international political economy - and market expansion - as it has the purpose of spreading the very the idea of private, exclusive ownership of knowledge and intellectual property generally, while seeking credibility through "protection" of minorities and vulnerable groups, whose cultures in turn are undermined as market relations or the cash economy advances onto their territory. The protection myth, in this context, functions to extract information (recipes, species info etc.) from knowledge practices, but let's the bio-cultural systems in which they exist wither. Some background info here: http://biocultural.iied.org/ Documenting some "knowledge" does nothing automagically for a knowledge practice, except that in the case of traditional, medicinal knowledge practices, it - with obvious intentions and effects - facilitates commercialisation of the information extracted from a given knowledge practice. Museums are full of dead knowledge. In other words, you can document as much, say, shamanic knowledge as you like, but if there is no access to forest, land and the required resources - i.e. bio-cultural systems - in which those knowledge practices traditionally unfold, then it is merely information in an abstract form on paper (or in bits). If you want to preserve knowledge practices about living on and with the land - i.e. about growing stuff - then the first step is to secure access to land in order to be able to practice. Knowing by description how to grow something won't put food on the table unless there is land to practice on. Knowing by acquaintance won't either, hence many cultures facing land grabs, deforestation, climate change etc. are losing their traditional knowledge not because it is no longer known, or undocumented, but simply because they become uprooted and have nowhere to grow, to end on ecologicals metaphors. -martin _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
agreed Michael, as you say: "I would personally be very cautious in any attempt to transpose notions of "open" or even p2p directly to traditional/indigenous societies without first undertaking a major process of cultural understanding and translation." On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 3:44 PM, michael gurstein <[email protected]>wrote:
** Michel and all,
Thanks for the pointer Michel but I'm not sure that those examples are very pertinent in this context. I think that indigenous traditional knowledge as has been pointed out is highly contextual as is its documentation or formalization and is quite different in form and substance from "open information/open data" as we in western developed countries understand this.
One element of this knowledge is that there may be cultural restrictions on its access/use within the specific cultural context i.e. there may be cultural limitions on who can use what knowledge and for what purposes and to disregard these limitations/practices without full regard for the owners of the traditional knowledge is not only deeply disrespectful but it might be very destructive of the local culture and even on the knowledge that is being "captured".
One other important consideration here is that for many indigenous peoples their knowledge may be a resource, in many cases the only resource available to them in providing a means for participating in the larger society. Thus calls/demands for "open knowledge" in these instances may be an updated form of colonialism -- acting in such a way as to deprive indigenous people of the opportunity to take some material advantage of their cultural and environment parallel to similar processes where other resources such as land or raw materials might similarly have been stolen by outsiders.
I would personally be very cautious in any attempt to transpose notions of "open" or even p2p directly to traditional/indigenous societies without first undertaking a major process of cultural understanding and translation.
Best,
Mike
-----Original Message----- *From:* [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Michel Bauwens *Sent:* Saturday, July 30, 2011 2:43 PM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list *Cc:* nina *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] a new type of platform?
Hi Devin,
THere is indeed a long tradition of traditional people using documentation and networks to further their cause,
for them as for us, it's part of an arsenal of means they can use,
but the context of technology use matters, i.e. is it under their own control, or not, is it used or not, for the benefit of outside forces,
Michael Gurstein, at OKCON11, pointed to some famous case studies where 'open documentation' was used preferentially by those already privileged, thus increasing rather than decreasing power differentials...
Michel
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Devin Balkind < [email protected]> wrote:
I don't think you're making an argument against documentation, but you are making an argument for access to resources. I consider knowledge a resource and it's documentation one of many ways to make that resource useable.
The following is from the website you cited:
*Example: The Potato Park community biocultural database (Peru)*
A database of potato varieties and biocultural systems became necessary to hold the information collected by communities through action research. The database uses free (open source) software to administer data entry, access and use, since this is compatible with customary practices of free and open sharing of knowledge. The free software DRUPAL platform is creating a database based on three Andean principles of reciprocity, duality and equilibrium. The database also uses GIS technology and audiovisual equipment for recording resources and knowledge.
http://biocultural.iied.org/tools/community-biocultural-registers
Since there is no link to the dataset and considering your post, I'm wondering whether you think this database should be public and accessible via the internet.
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:35 AM, jmp <[email protected]> wrote:
On 28/07/11 09:20, Karl Robillard wrote:
Nicholas,
The importance of OSE is not primarily in what is being produced, but *how* it is being produced. The knowledge of production is being openly shared with the expressed goal of replication and abundance. Doing this is just as useful for producing food forests as it is for tractors. If you see that traditional knowledge is disappearing then you only need to document and share it to stop that from happening.
For info / some related implications, from a different perspective.
The latter part - especially "... then you only ..." - parallels a common and widespread conception of traditional knowledge that is problematic, in its reduction, at least insofar as the context of indigenous people is concerned. It ignores the material and physical reality of knowledge as doing: traditional knowledge is practices embedded in bio-cultural systems -- not merely information that can be documented ex-situ.
It is precisely this reduced conception of traditional knowledge - i.e. that it can be documented to protect it - that many indigenous movements and empathetic researchers are arguing and working against, because it is devastating to many communities (another set of socio-economic conflicts arises from the so-called benefit sharing that accompanies this approach, but that is a tangent here).
It is a conception manifested in the UN, WIPO, state and corporate "intellectual property" approaches to the "protection" of traditional knowledge. Indeed, it forms central part of contemporary international political economy - and market expansion - as it has the purpose of spreading the very the idea of private, exclusive ownership of knowledge and intellectual property generally, while seeking credibility through "protection" of minorities and vulnerable groups, whose cultures in turn are undermined as market relations or the cash economy advances onto their territory. The protection myth, in this context, functions to extract information (recipes, species info etc.) from knowledge practices, but let's the bio-cultural systems in which they exist wither. Some background info here: http://biocultural.iied.org/
Documenting some "knowledge" does nothing automagically for a knowledge practice, except that in the case of traditional, medicinal knowledge practices, it - with obvious intentions and effects - facilitates commercialisation of the information extracted from a given knowledge practice. Museums are full of dead knowledge.
In other words, you can document as much, say, shamanic knowledge as you like, but if there is no access to forest, land and the required resources - i.e. bio-cultural systems - in which those knowledge practices traditionally unfold, then it is merely information in an abstract form on paper (or in bits).
If you want to preserve knowledge practices about living on and with the land - i.e. about growing stuff - then the first step is to secure access to land in order to be able to practice. Knowing by description how to grow something won't put food on the table unless there is land to practice on. Knowing by acquaintance won't either, hence many cultures facing land grabs, deforestation, climate change etc. are losing their traditional knowledge not because it is no longer known, or undocumented, but simply because they become uprooted and have nowhere to grow, to end on ecologicals metaphors.
-martin
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On Monday, July 18, 2011 09:00:40 pm Nicholas Roberts wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist
Everything in our world has a structural design. Our bodies, our machines, our systems of production, our forms of government, and our environment. Open source is about the absolute freedom to communicate and modify designs. This empowers people to understand, repair, replicate and customize the structures around them. What's your beef against understanding the world? We live in the information age. Software isn't a fetish, it's just the way we manipulate information. Our new information tools are certainly revolutionary, but I don't see anything utopian about them.
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
Open source works for whoever wants to take advantage of it. What you said could be said about any human endeavor. "Super-stardom only works for artists who can attract enough fans!" "Free markets only work for capitalists who can sell to enough customers!" "Representative democracy only works for voters who can get their candidates elected!" (Heh... and not even then)
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
I agree, where the social problem happens to be that the designs for all the products we use and the institutions we must engage with are not open and easily modified. Ha! I take that back, the problem is very much a design problem - a problem of social design. To advocate that people ought not spend time learning about the structure of things and communicating this knowledge to others is totalitarian. -Karl
I'm really interested in a 'constructive critique' of OSE ... here is some of my own: - first of all, Nicholas refers to the authoritarian tendencies ... as I see it, this was certainly a problem in the beginning, when people expected OSE to work as as a voluntary open source program, which I think it isn't. It's a almost fully thought out vision from marcin, and the project is a vehicle to bring that to fruition. It's like working for Avatar for Cameron, you fully expect to be ordered around. What was not clear perhaps was this underlying social contract, hence the early problem. However, it seems quite clear that this issue has been resolved, i.e. new volunteers are clear about this expectation, and, that there is also funding, making this type of relationship clearer as well. Nevertheless, it seems that Marcin has been successfull in attracting a new layer of volunteers and that they are happy with the level of participation they can bring, though it is true that the ones I know are 'remote participants' .. For me, the Marcin approach is legitimate, there needs to be place in the world for 'genial individuals' who have a capacity to mobilize people and realize a vision. The key is that you are aware of the implicit or explicit social contract. - I think the project has many merits, but it is also a limited one. It is a vision of an autonomous village, but doesn't answer more global social concerns like for example the commodity ecology of Mark Whitaker does. But of course, it shouldn't. I.e. there must be room for systemic approaches that touch communities as a whole, and core initiatives like Marcin, which are meant to seed the broader environment with strong local subcommunities with alternative logics, and of course, the latter's availability will influence the former. Now, this is my provisional critique, but I don't really see the totalitarian aspects. They're work is interoperable and open standard, so as I see it, others can work on it, create variations, etc ... Michel On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Karl Robillard <[email protected]>wrote:
On Monday, July 18, 2011 09:00:40 pm Nicholas Roberts wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist
Everything in our world has a structural design. Our bodies, our machines, our systems of production, our forms of government, and our environment. Open source is about the absolute freedom to communicate and modify designs. This empowers people to understand, repair, replicate and customize the structures around them. What's your beef against understanding the world?
We live in the information age. Software isn't a fetish, it's just the way we manipulate information. Our new information tools are certainly revolutionary, but I don't see anything utopian about them.
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
Open source works for whoever wants to take advantage of it. What you said could be said about any human endeavor.
"Super-stardom only works for artists who can attract enough fans!" "Free markets only work for capitalists who can sell to enough customers!" "Representative democracy only works for voters who can get their candidates elected!" (Heh... and not even then)
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
I agree, where the social problem happens to be that the designs for all the products we use and the institutions we must engage with are not open and easily modified. Ha! I take that back, the problem is very much a design problem - a problem of social design. To advocate that people ought not spend time learning about the structure of things and communicating this knowledge to others is totalitarian.
-Karl
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On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm really interested in a 'constructive critique' of OSE ...
here is some of my own:
- first of all, Nicholas refers to the authoritarian tendencies ... as I see it, this was certainly a problem in the beginning, when people expected OSE to work as as a voluntary open source program, which I think it isn't. It's a almost fully thought out vision from marcin, and the project is a vehicle to bring that to fruition. It's like working for Avatar for Cameron, you fully expect to be ordered around. What was not clear perhaps was this underlying social contract, hence the early problem. However, it seems quite clear that this issue has been resolved, i.e. new volunteers are clear about this expectation, and, that there is also funding, making this type of relationship clearer as well. Nevertheless, it seems that Marcin has been successfull in attracting a new layer of volunteers and that they are happy with the level of participation they can bring, though it is true that the ones I know are 'remote participants' .. For me, the Marcin approach is legitimate, there needs to be place in the world for 'genial individuals' who have a capacity to mobilize people and realize a vision. The key is that you are aware of the implicit or explicit social contract.
- I think the project has many merits, but it is also a limited one. It is a vision of an autonomous village, but doesn't answer more global social concerns like for example the commodity ecology of Mark Whitaker does. But of course, it shouldn't. I.e. there must be room for systemic approaches that touch communities as a whole, and core initiatives like Marcin, which are meant to seed the broader environment with strong local subcommunities with alternative logics, and of course, the latter's availability will influence the former.
Now, this is my provisional critique, but I don't really see the totalitarian aspects.
They're work is interoperable and open standard, so as I see it, others can work on it, create variations, etc ...
Michel
A practical critique: The designs need some work to be safe and usable machinery. I would feel safer using manual Amish equipment for building and farming over some of these designs. I've seen many of my farming relatives lose fingers, legs, and lives. This would happen much faster by way of distributed (internet mediated) collaboration, involving people who have genuine knowledge of design and engineering of the type of equipment proposed. Creating Blender files and posting them with descriptions to a wiki doesn't cut it for useful collaboration around design and engineering. There are working examples for how to collaborate in distributed ways around design in projects like RepRap, Arduino. Spend less time and energy on publicity, and more time on building a robust collaborative design infrastructure on the internet.
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Karl Robillard <[email protected]> wrote:
On Monday, July 18, 2011 09:00:40 pm Nicholas Roberts wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist
Everything in our world has a structural design. Our bodies, our machines, our systems of production, our forms of government, and our environment. Open source is about the absolute freedom to communicate and modify designs. This empowers people to understand, repair, replicate and customize the structures around them. What's your beef against understanding the world?
We live in the information age. Software isn't a fetish, it's just the way we manipulate information. Our new information tools are certainly revolutionary, but I don't see anything utopian about them.
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
Open source works for whoever wants to take advantage of it. What you said could be said about any human endeavor.
"Super-stardom only works for artists who can attract enough fans!" "Free markets only work for capitalists who can sell to enough customers!" "Representative democracy only works for voters who can get their candidates elected!" (Heh... and not even then)
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
I agree, where the social problem happens to be that the designs for all the products we use and the institutions we must engage with are not open and easily modified. Ha! I take that back, the problem is very much a design problem - a problem of social design. To advocate that people ought not spend time learning about the structure of things and communicating this knowledge to others is totalitarian.
-Karl
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hi sam, and others, perhaps a really stupid question, but it's a reaction I encountered when presenting OSE: - but all these machines are already a long time in the public domain ... what about such an argument? Michel On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm really interested in a 'constructive critique' of OSE ...
here is some of my own:
- first of all, Nicholas refers to the authoritarian tendencies ... as I see it, this was certainly a problem in the beginning, when people expected OSE to work as as a voluntary open source program, which I think it isn't. It's a almost fully thought out vision from marcin, and the project is a vehicle to bring that to fruition. It's like working for Avatar for Cameron, you fully expect to be ordered around. What was not clear perhaps was this underlying social contract, hence the early problem. However, it seems quite clear that this issue has been resolved, i.e. new volunteers are clear about this expectation, and, that there is also funding, making this type of relationship clearer as well. Nevertheless, it seems that Marcin has been successfull in attracting a new layer of volunteers and that they are happy with the level of participation they can bring, though it is true that the ones I know are 'remote participants' .. For me, the Marcin approach is legitimate, there needs to be place in the world for 'genial individuals' who have a capacity to mobilize people and realize a vision. The key is that you are aware of the implicit or explicit social contract.
- I think the project has many merits, but it is also a limited one. It is a vision of an autonomous village, but doesn't answer more global social concerns like for example the commodity ecology of Mark Whitaker does. But of course, it shouldn't. I.e. there must be room for systemic approaches that touch communities as a whole, and core initiatives like Marcin, which are meant to seed the broader environment with strong local subcommunities with alternative logics, and of course, the latter's availability will influence the former.
Now, this is my provisional critique, but I don't really see the totalitarian aspects.
They're work is interoperable and open standard, so as I see it, others can work on it, create variations, etc ...
Michel
A practical critique:
The designs need some work to be safe and usable machinery. I would feel safer using manual Amish equipment for building and farming over some of these designs. I've seen many of my farming relatives lose fingers, legs, and lives. This would happen much faster by way of distributed (internet mediated) collaboration, involving people who have genuine knowledge of design and engineering of the type of equipment proposed. Creating Blender files and posting them with descriptions to a wiki doesn't cut it for useful collaboration around design and engineering. There are working examples for how to collaborate in distributed ways around design in projects like RepRap, Arduino. Spend less time and energy on publicity, and more time on building a robust collaborative design infrastructure on the internet.
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Karl Robillard <[email protected]> wrote:
On Monday, July 18, 2011 09:00:40 pm Nicholas Roberts wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it,
it
doesnt exist
Everything in our world has a structural design. Our bodies, our machines, our systems of production, our forms of government, and our environment. Open source is about the absolute freedom to communicate and modify designs. This empowers people to understand, repair, replicate and customize the structures around them. What's your beef against understanding the world?
We live in the information age. Software isn't a fetish, it's just the way we manipulate information. Our new information tools are certainly revolutionary, but I don't see anything utopian about them.
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
Open source works for whoever wants to take advantage of it. What you said could be said about any human endeavor.
"Super-stardom only works for artists who can attract enough fans!" "Free markets only work for capitalists who can sell to enough customers!" "Representative democracy only works for voters who can get their candidates elected!" (Heh... and not even then)
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
I agree, where the social problem happens to be that the designs for all the products we use and the institutions we must engage with are not open and easily modified. Ha! I take that back, the problem is very much a design problem - a problem of social design. To advocate that people ought not spend time learning about the structure of things and communicating this knowledge to others is totalitarian.
-Karl
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"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi sam, and others,
perhaps a really stupid question, but it's a reaction I encountered when presenting OSE:
- but all these machines are already a long time in the public domain ...
what about such an argument?
Michel
This is true, but is a different subject point from my own. I can release a design into the public domain, but that doesn't mean it is a sound or good design, and it doesn't mean my design is ready for real world use month after month, year after year by people who really need to feed their families and earn a living (and remain safe and in one piece while doing it). Also, just because I have released the design under public domain does not mean that others can easily extend or contribute back, or understand what I have done and replicate it and build upon it.
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm really interested in a 'constructive critique' of OSE ...
here is some of my own:
- first of all, Nicholas refers to the authoritarian tendencies ... as I see it, this was certainly a problem in the beginning, when people expected OSE to work as as a voluntary open source program, which I think it isn't. It's a almost fully thought out vision from marcin, and the project is a vehicle to bring that to fruition. It's like working for Avatar for Cameron, you fully expect to be ordered around. What was not clear perhaps was this underlying social contract, hence the early problem. However, it seems quite clear that this issue has been resolved, i.e. new volunteers are clear about this expectation, and, that there is also funding, making this type of relationship clearer as well. Nevertheless, it seems that Marcin has been successfull in attracting a new layer of volunteers and that they are happy with the level of participation they can bring, though it is true that the ones I know are 'remote participants' .. For me, the Marcin approach is legitimate, there needs to be place in the world for 'genial individuals' who have a capacity to mobilize people and realize a vision. The key is that you are aware of the implicit or explicit social contract.
- I think the project has many merits, but it is also a limited one. It is a vision of an autonomous village, but doesn't answer more global social concerns like for example the commodity ecology of Mark Whitaker does. But of course, it shouldn't. I.e. there must be room for systemic approaches that touch communities as a whole, and core initiatives like Marcin, which are meant to seed the broader environment with strong local subcommunities with alternative logics, and of course, the latter's availability will influence the former.
Now, this is my provisional critique, but I don't really see the totalitarian aspects.
They're work is interoperable and open standard, so as I see it, others can work on it, create variations, etc ...
Michel
A practical critique:
The designs need some work to be safe and usable machinery. I would feel safer using manual Amish equipment for building and farming over some of these designs. I've seen many of my farming relatives lose fingers, legs, and lives. This would happen much faster by way of distributed (internet mediated) collaboration, involving people who have genuine knowledge of design and engineering of the type of equipment proposed. Creating Blender files and posting them with descriptions to a wiki doesn't cut it for useful collaboration around design and engineering. There are working examples for how to collaborate in distributed ways around design in projects like RepRap, Arduino. Spend less time and energy on publicity, and more time on building a robust collaborative design infrastructure on the internet.
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Karl Robillard <[email protected]> wrote:
On Monday, July 18, 2011 09:00:40 pm Nicholas Roberts wrote:
personally I think that while the OSE project is idealistic and technically interesting, its also totalitarian, naive and a dangerous distraction from existing social systems, craft movements and appropriate technology
its a kind of utopian new age totalitarianism, with a digital fabrication and software development festish... if you cant model it, design it, it doesnt exist
Everything in our world has a structural design. Our bodies, our machines, our systems of production, our forms of government, and our environment. Open source is about the absolute freedom to communicate and modify designs. This empowers people to understand, repair, replicate and customize the structures around them. What's your beef against understanding the world?
We live in the information age. Software isn't a fetish, it's just the way we manipulate information. Our new information tools are certainly revolutionary, but I don't see anything utopian about them.
real-life just doesn't work like that, you might be able to insulate yourself from that if you've got a stream of volunteers, a large number of donors etc, but really it only works for those principals at the core
Open source works for whoever wants to take advantage of it. What you said could be said about any human endeavor.
"Super-stardom only works for artists who can attract enough fans!" "Free markets only work for capitalists who can sell to enough customers!" "Representative democracy only works for voters who can get their candidates elected!" (Heh... and not even then)
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
I agree, where the social problem happens to be that the designs for all the products we use and the institutions we must engage with are not open and easily modified. Ha! I take that back, the problem is very much a design problem - a problem of social design. To advocate that people ought not spend time learning about the structure of things and communicating this knowledge to others is totalitarian.
-Karl
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Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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-- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
El 19/07/11 11:49, Samuel Rose escribió:
Also, just because I have released the design under public domain does not mean that others can easily extend or contribute back, or understand what I have done and replicate it and build upon it.
Exactly. And also, a design (or software) in the public domain is not equivalent to open design (or free software/open source): the sources should be available to be considered "open" (that's not always the case with PD stuff). Best, -- Franco Iacomella
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Franco Iacomella <[email protected]> wrote:
El 19/07/11 11:49, Samuel Rose escribió:
Also, just because I have released the design under public domain does not mean that others can easily extend or contribute back, or understand what I have done and replicate it and build upon it.
Exactly. And also, a design (or software) in the public domain is not equivalent to open design (or free software/open source): the sources should be available to be considered "open" (that's not always the case with PD stuff).
Best,
-- Franco Iacomella
Agree, a copyleft approach ensures the design is perpetually available in a human "commons". -- -- Sam Rose Hollymead Capital Partners, LLC Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 email: [email protected] http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
I previously wrote:
Open source is about the absolute freedom to communicate and modify designs.
Just as the words 'fetish' and 'totalitarianism' betray a certain fear on the part of Nicholas, the word 'absolute' betrays a certain desparation on mine. I'd amend this to say something like: Open source is about maximising the freedom to communicate and modify designs. I am interested in hearing you elaborate on your fears, Nicholas. -Karl
El 19/07/11 01:00, Nicholas Roberts escribió:
the problem isn't a design problem, it's a social and political one
Nichola's words are presented without any substantiate. Just to be clear: Free/Open source movement is not a design or technical issue, *IS mainly social and political*. Best, -- Franco Iacomella
participants (11)
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Benjamin Brownell -
Devin Balkind -
Franco Iacomella -
jmp -
Karl Robillard -
Kevin Carson -
michael gurstein -
Michel Bauwens -
Michel Bauwens -
Nicholas Roberts -
Samuel Rose