anonymous campaign against p2p-foundation
thanks for the comments, Kevin/Tom: of course this could be some cointelpro, or it could just be a personal issue, how would we be able to know this ? on a rational level, this is xtremely difficult to understand: we had friendly relations with heather, promoted her work, and she asked us to publish these excerpts herself. How could she forget ? that seems so impossible to fathom. and once she knew about the oversight, why did she not relent, but on the contrary escalated? as for orsan's remark, she believes we make money out of our curation, and that we are publicly funded. Of course you know both are wrong. We make zero income on that curation, all the wiki and blog work is free labour, and the very reason of my precarity , lack of heath insurance etc (including months with no money for food, solved by family solidarity): I have occasionally received very small sub-minimum wage contributions via james, when we fundraised in times of crisis; now, we won a EU grant, not for the p2p foundation, but to pay researchers that do actual research for the project (and none of that money has come in yet); this is not public funding for the foundation my situation is not rare, most of our associates live in precarious circumstances with very low incomes, and none of p2p-f volunteering is funded; we are all trying to do our best to generate derivative funding from the market next year is the first year I can look forward to monthly wages since 2007; and it will used to fill holes and bring my family to Ecuador. So no, we are not profiting from heather; on the contrary, we were helping her to get her ideas across to more people, costing us energy and time . -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
So sad, scarcity is winning. And with it misunderstanding between people. 2013/11/10 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
thanks for the comments,
Kevin/Tom: of course this could be some cointelpro, or it could just be a personal issue, how would we be able to know this ?
on a rational level, this is xtremely difficult to understand: we had friendly relations with heather, promoted her work, and she asked us to publish these excerpts herself. How could she forget ? that seems so impossible to fathom.
and once she knew about the oversight, why did she not relent, but on the contrary escalated?
as for orsan's remark,
she believes we make money out of our curation, and that we are publicly funded. Of course you know both are wrong. We make zero income on that curation, all the wiki and blog work is free labour, and the very reason of my precarity , lack of heath insurance etc (including months with no money for food, solved by family solidarity): I have occasionally received very small sub-minimum wage contributions via james, when we fundraised in times of crisis;
now, we won a EU grant, not for the p2p foundation, but to pay researchers that do actual research for the project (and none of that money has come in yet); this is not public funding for the foundation
my situation is not rare, most of our associates live in precarious circumstances with very low incomes, and none of p2p-f volunteering is funded; we are all trying to do our best to generate derivative funding from the market
next year is the first year I can look forward to monthly wages since 2007; and it will used to fill holes and bring my family to Ecuador.
So no, we are not profiting from heather; on the contrary, we were helping her to get her ideas across to more people, costing us energy and time .
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Michel I know because you say so and I believe you, and I believe you because I feel it and we also met in person and spent some time. Obviously there are many like Heather who may be didn't meet you yet and can't believe you but also the fact that at this level it can be achieved by merely relying on your own free labour and under precarious conditions. This actually contradict with Heather's own experience, since what she has chosen to do is more about radical journalism and activism and that doesn't pay back at the level p2pf operates... anyway What I feel would be helpful, because this is what i think what is heather also most sensitive about (rightly as all of us), or some of us, is the feeling of injustice and being used. anyway forget about me and others, and just to quick fix the problem of possible DDoS attack, pls send Heather, even if in dutch, the year reports of the foundation which probably you have to publish every year and has to include the fiscal reports. iIn principle this is public info but usually they are not widely open right in the middle (just looked for but couldn't find on the wiki) so please send her so she has a proof, again this I guess would be a quick fix for the Anon campaign problem we have. if there is another reason behind it however it should be uncovered. while writing these lines i realized that her book is out http://www.amazon.com/Binding-Chaos-collaboration-global-scale/dp/1489527680... And looks like good read with a great title 'binding chaos' which I believe describes very good what you Michel and we all try to do, while collaborating radically and creating what I call a systemic 'change value'. and again right now remembering that she was raising a criticism towards p2p economies, probably that is also part of her book and -thinking loudly- her anger could be theoretically informed as well... anyway the contradiction here is worth to dig a bit more I think and given that the P2PF is now at a turning point with the recent great achievements in Ecuador and with the EU grant such reflection can be useful for all p2p friends. I still feel hopefully something very positive might come out of this. Orsan On 10 nov. 2013, at 21:37, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thanks for the comments,
Kevin/Tom: of course this could be some cointelpro, or it could just be a personal issue, how would we be able to know this ?
on a rational level, this is xtremely difficult to understand: we had friendly relations with heather, promoted her work, and she asked us to publish these excerpts herself. How could she forget ? that seems so impossible to fathom.
and once she knew about the oversight, why did she not relent, but on the contrary escalated?
as for orsan's remark,
she believes we make money out of our curation, and that we are publicly funded. Of course you know both are wrong. We make zero income on that curation, all the wiki and blog work is free labour, and the very reason of my precarity , lack of heath insurance etc (including months with no money for food, solved by family solidarity): I have occasionally received very small sub-minimum wage contributions via james, when we fundraised in times of crisis;
now, we won a EU grant, not for the p2p foundation, but to pay researchers that do actual research for the project (and none of that money has come in yet); this is not public funding for the foundation
my situation is not rare, most of our associates live in precarious circumstances with very low incomes, and none of p2p-f volunteering is funded; we are all trying to do our best to generate derivative funding from the market
next year is the first year I can look forward to monthly wages since 2007; and it will used to fill holes and bring my family to Ecuador.
So no, we are not profiting from heather; on the contrary, we were helping her to get her ideas across to more people, costing us energy and time .
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
You seem to think she has a very close connection to Anon and is somehow driving the YourAnonCentral campaign against Michel. If so, she's being extremely disingenuous with all the passive-aggressive subtweeting about not having time for the drama -- not to mention YourAnonCentral claiming she never made the accusations herself. On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote:
Michel I know because you say so and I believe you, and I believe you because I feel it and we also met in person and spent some time. Obviously there are many like Heather who may be didn't meet you yet and can't believe you but also the fact that at this level it can be achieved by merely relying on your own free labour and under precarious conditions. This actually contradict with Heather's own experience, since what she has chosen to do is more about radical journalism and activism and that doesn't pay back at the level p2pf operates... anyway What I feel would be helpful, because this is what i think what is heather also most sensitive about (rightly as all of us), or some of us, is the feeling of injustice and being used. anyway forget about me and others, and just to quick fix the problem of possible DDoS attack, pls send Heather, even if in dutch, the year reports of the foundation which probably you have to publish every year and has to include the fiscal reports. iIn principle this is public info but usually they are not widely open right in the middle (just looked for but couldn't find on the wiki) so please send her so she has a proof, again this I guess would be a quick fix for the Anon campaign problem we have.
if there is another reason behind it however it should be uncovered. while writing these lines i realized that her book is out http://www.amazon.com/Binding-Chaos-collaboration-global-scale/dp/1489527680...
And looks like good read with a great title 'binding chaos' which I believe describes very good what you Michel and we all try to do, while collaborating radically and creating what I call a systemic 'change value'. and again right now remembering that she was raising a criticism towards p2p economies, probably that is also part of her book and -thinking loudly- her anger could be theoretically informed as well... anyway the contradiction here is worth to dig a bit more I think and given that the P2PF is now at a turning point with the recent great achievements in Ecuador and with the EU grant such reflection can be useful for all p2p friends. I still feel hopefully something very positive might come out of this. Orsan
On 10 nov. 2013, at 21:37, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thanks for the comments,
Kevin/Tom: of course this could be some cointelpro, or it could just be a personal issue, how would we be able to know this ?
on a rational level, this is xtremely difficult to understand: we had friendly relations with heather, promoted her work, and she asked us to publish these excerpts herself. How could she forget ? that seems so impossible to fathom.
and once she knew about the oversight, why did she not relent, but on the contrary escalated?
as for orsan's remark,
she believes we make money out of our curation, and that we are publicly funded. Of course you know both are wrong. We make zero income on that curation, all the wiki and blog work is free labour, and the very reason of my precarity , lack of heath insurance etc (including months with no money for food, solved by family solidarity): I have occasionally received very small sub-minimum wage contributions via james, when we fundraised in times of crisis;
now, we won a EU grant, not for the p2p foundation, but to pay researchers that do actual research for the project (and none of that money has come in yet); this is not public funding for the foundation
my situation is not rare, most of our associates live in precarious circumstances with very low incomes, and none of p2p-f volunteering is funded; we are all trying to do our best to generate derivative funding from the market
next year is the first year I can look forward to monthly wages since 2007; and it will used to fill holes and bring my family to Ecuador.
So no, we are not profiting from heather; on the contrary, we were helping her to get her ideas across to more people, costing us energy and time .
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
_______________________________________________
P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Kevin Carson Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com
To add some clarity I have posted my own response on the previous thread. On 10 November 2013 22:37, Kevin Carson <[email protected]> wrote:
You seem to think she has a very close connection to Anon and is somehow driving the YourAnonCentral campaign against Michel.
If so, she's being extremely disingenuous with all the passive-aggressive subtweeting about not having time for the drama -- not to mention YourAnonCentral claiming she never made the accusations herself.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote:
Michel I know because you say so and I believe you, and I believe you because I feel it and we also met in person and spent some time. Obviously there are many like Heather who may be didn't meet you yet and can't believe you but also the fact that at this level it can be achieved by merely relying on your own free labour and under precarious conditions. This actually contradict with Heather's own experience, since what she has chosen to do is more about radical journalism and activism and that doesn't pay back at the level p2pf operates... anyway What I feel would be helpful, because this is what i think what is heather also most sensitive about (rightly as all of us), or some of us, is the feeling of injustice and being used. anyway forget about me and others, and just to quick fix the problem of possible DDoS attack, pls send Heather, even if in dutch, the year reports of the foundation which probably you have to publish every year and has to include the fiscal reports. iIn principle this is public info but usually they are not widely open right in the middle (just looked for but couldn't find on the wiki) so please send her so she has a proof, again this I guess would be a quick fix for the Anon campaign problem we have.
if there is another reason behind it however it should be uncovered. while writing these lines i realized that her book is out http://www.amazon.com/Binding-Chaos-collaboration-global-scale/dp/1489527680...
And looks like good read with a great title 'binding chaos' which I believe describes very good what you Michel and we all try to do, while collaborating radically and creating what I call a systemic 'change value'. and again right now remembering that she was raising a criticism towards p2p economies, probably that is also part of her book and -thinking loudly- her anger could be theoretically informed as well... anyway the contradiction here is worth to dig a bit more I think and given that the P2PF is now at a turning point with the recent great achievements in Ecuador and with the EU grant such reflection can be useful for all p2p friends. I still feel hopefully something very positive might come out of this. Orsan
On 10 nov. 2013, at 21:37, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thanks for the comments,
Kevin/Tom: of course this could be some cointelpro, or it could just be a personal issue, how would we be able to know this ?
on a rational level, this is xtremely difficult to understand: we had friendly relations with heather, promoted her work, and she asked us to publish these excerpts herself. How could she forget ? that seems so impossible to fathom.
and once she knew about the oversight, why did she not relent, but on the contrary escalated?
as for orsan's remark,
she believes we make money out of our curation, and that we are publicly funded. Of course you know both are wrong. We make zero income on that curation, all the wiki and blog work is free labour, and the very reason of my precarity , lack of heath insurance etc (including months with no money for food, solved by family solidarity): I have occasionally received very small sub-minimum wage contributions via james, when we fundraised in times of crisis;
now, we won a EU grant, not for the p2p foundation, but to pay researchers that do actual research for the project (and none of that money has come in yet); this is not public funding for the foundation
my situation is not rare, most of our associates live in precarious circumstances with very low incomes, and none of p2p-f volunteering is funded; we are all trying to do our best to generate derivative funding from the market
next year is the first year I can look forward to monthly wages since 2007; and it will used to fill holes and bring my family to Ecuador.
So no, we are not profiting from heather; on the contrary, we were helping her to get her ideas across to more people, costing us energy and time .
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
_______________________________________________
P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Kevin Carson Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
"You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous
Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
hi Kevin, that was the impression I got first but not sure, and yes I think via WikileaksCentral work and beyond for her activism she has good comm with anon accounts. Probably they picked up themselves don't know. any way would be easier to convince her to shift to a nicer and more constructive theoretical engagement, I agree with Michel's last post. she somehow misreads the p2p theory built around the foundation and by michel, at least that has been also my opinion and remember reacting to her article -titled approval economy- since she mainly refers p2p or distributed capitalism in her critics -which is also being discussed I remember by you guys. I would like to read her book and argument again and compare to Michel's, yours and others Kevin. the nut needs be resolved with her might be lying there indeed. On 10 nov. 2013, at 23:37, Kevin Carson <[email protected]> wrote:
You seem to think she has a very close connection to Anon and is somehow driving the YourAnonCentral campaign against Michel.
If so, she's being extremely disingenuous with all the passive-aggressive subtweeting about not having time for the drama -- not to mention YourAnonCentral claiming she never made the accusations herself.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote:
Michel I know because you say so and I believe you, and I believe you because I feel it and we also met in person and spent some time. Obviously there are many like Heather who may be didn't meet you yet and can't believe you but also the fact that at this level it can be achieved by merely relying on your own free labour and under precarious conditions. This actually contradict with Heather's own experience, since what she has chosen to do is more about radical journalism and activism and that doesn't pay back at the level p2pf operates... anyway What I feel would be helpful, because this is what i think what is heather also most sensitive about (rightly as all of us), or some of us, is the feeling of injustice and being used. anyway forget about me and others, and just to quick fix the problem of possible DDoS attack, pls send Heather, even if in dutch, the year reports of the foundation which probably you have to publish every year and has to include the fiscal reports. iIn principle this is public info but usually they are not widely open right in the middle (just looked for but couldn't find on the wiki) so please send her so she has a proof, again this I guess would be a quick fix for the Anon campaign problem we have.
if there is another reason behind it however it should be uncovered. while writing these lines i realized that her book is out http://www.amazon.com/Binding-Chaos-collaboration-global-scale/dp/1489527680...
And looks like good read with a great title 'binding chaos' which I believe describes very good what you Michel and we all try to do, while collaborating radically and creating what I call a systemic 'change value'. and again right now remembering that she was raising a criticism towards p2p economies, probably that is also part of her book and -thinking loudly- her anger could be theoretically informed as well... anyway the contradiction here is worth to dig a bit more I think and given that the P2PF is now at a turning point with the recent great achievements in Ecuador and with the EU grant such reflection can be useful for all p2p friends. I still feel hopefully something very positive might come out of this. Orsan
On 10 nov. 2013, at 21:37, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thanks for the comments,
Kevin/Tom: of course this could be some cointelpro, or it could just be a personal issue, how would we be able to know this ?
on a rational level, this is xtremely difficult to understand: we had friendly relations with heather, promoted her work, and she asked us to publish these excerpts herself. How could she forget ? that seems so impossible to fathom.
and once she knew about the oversight, why did she not relent, but on the contrary escalated?
as for orsan's remark,
she believes we make money out of our curation, and that we are publicly funded. Of course you know both are wrong. We make zero income on that curation, all the wiki and blog work is free labour, and the very reason of my precarity , lack of heath insurance etc (including months with no money for food, solved by family solidarity): I have occasionally received very small sub-minimum wage contributions via james, when we fundraised in times of crisis;
now, we won a EU grant, not for the p2p foundation, but to pay researchers that do actual research for the project (and none of that money has come in yet); this is not public funding for the foundation
my situation is not rare, most of our associates live in precarious circumstances with very low incomes, and none of p2p-f volunteering is funded; we are all trying to do our best to generate derivative funding from the market
next year is the first year I can look forward to monthly wages since 2007; and it will used to fill holes and bring my family to Ecuador.
So no, we are not profiting from heather; on the contrary, we were helping her to get her ideas across to more people, costing us energy and time .
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
_______________________________________________
P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Kevin Carson Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
"You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous
Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
on a rational level, this is xtremely difficult to understand: we had friendly relations with heather, promoted her work, and she asked us to publish these excerpts herself. How could she forget ? that seems so impossible to fathom.
and once she knew about the oversight, why did she not relent, but on the contrary escalated?
If I may add a few thoughts... Having studied this issue a bit myself, I have come to the conclusion that despite women's equality granted by the law, they still have not the equality in practice. So their only "legitimacy" within the current system -- if they don't want to topple the (homosexual?) patriarchy of Novus Ordo Seclorum -- is getting credit for their work. Here's is the crux of your (and my) disbelief -- a "dilemma" which must be solved by her because it revolves around her own (chosen) belief system and are counter-posed to each other: liberal women have been fighting on behalf of gay men while women, themselves, remain homeless within this current socio-economic system. It is a *irrational* contradiction that liberal females are fighting for gay men while women remain without the power they deserve -- this is the source of crazyness. The whole system is actually bi-polar because of this issue, an otherwise undiagnosed mental illness, which is creating a type of insanity in the system. But don't blame Heather, she is expressing the symptom. -- MarkJ Tacoma, Washington
participants (6)
-
Kevin Carson -
Kevin Flanagan -
Marco Giustini -
Mark Janssen -
Michel Bauwens -
Orsan