Thanks Marc, my apologies for not making it clear in my message that I was building on some of the ideas and suggestions you put forward in a previous post of the same thread. Thanks for bringing forward your experience, looking forward to further exchanges, Dante On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Mark Roest <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello Dante-Gabryell and All,
In the first paragraph, I said, "The inventor of the Bosch Captive Column structural system originally designed it to go past the state of the art in structures in the 1960s, * for use in dirigibles which would bring hydrogen from offshore and remote on-shore wind farms to centers of use. He also invented an electrolyzer for separating the hydrogen, and the Poly-turbine windmill geometry, for minimizing the weight and enabling 300-foot diameters."* The Bosch Captive Column can also be used to create offshore platforms for wind farms, and to make towers for high-voltage transmission lines -- all at huge reductions in cost.
Regards,
Mark
On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson < [email protected]> wrote:
Thanks Mark. ( bcc: Chris Cook <http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook> , in case he is not on cotw lists already )
Energy is a topic I find of great interest. I set up this blank wiki page to which we can add links or add some of our exchanges : http://cotw.cc/wiki/Energy
I find interesting links on energy on http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Energy http://www.appropedia.org/Category:Energy
//
I also like a "Geothermal" link suggested by Chris Cook http://marshallhydrothermal.com/complete.htm
via the "Next Edge" facebook group :
http://www.facebook.com/groups/120497731371323/?view=permalink&id=1460822654...
//
Condensed Version of what I express below :
Using the renewable energy available, and find ways to transport it, (but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to energy resource allocation.*[1] )
I could imagine hydrogen being an approach to store and transport energy, though an approach with many challenges
//
*"The concept of an interconnected global grid linked to renewable resources was first suggested by Buckminster Fuller<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller> in the World Game <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Game> simulation in the 1970s. Fuller concluded that this strategy is the highest priority of the World Game simulation, (see page 206 of Fuller's book Critical Path (1981, ISBN 0-312-17491-8<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0312174918> )."* * * *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Energy_Network_Institute*
//
What financial and legal models can we set up to support such approaches ? Investing current mainstream energy in energy backed tokens ? As with the "grok" which, to my current understanding, enables investments/shares to serve as guarantee in an adapted mutual credit system approach ?
see : http://regional-economic-communities.info/info/newsletters/2011-09-04/
And/or combined with some of Chris Cook's finance/legal models ?
see : http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Long Version :*
Although I personally prefer not to become "fully dependent" on centralized production or distribution systems,
I imagine potential in tapping into large scale centralized energy production systems as to be complementary to local small scale production facilities as additional non-survival based potential.
I personally may not want to rely on only one mode of energy distribution, yet realized via the "Global Energy Network Institute" ( http://www.geni.org/ ), who lobbies for a "*global ( electricity ) grid linked to renewable resources"*,
video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fVI3BRBC6o
that
*"The concept of an interconnected global grid linked to renewable resources was first suggested by Buckminster Fuller<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller> in the World Game <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Game> simulation in the 1970s. Fuller concluded that this strategy is the highest priority of the World Game simulation, (see page 206 of Fuller's book Critical Path (1981, ISBN 0-312-17491-8<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0312174918> )."* * * *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Energy_Network_Institute*
//
I personally wish to use various technologies and approaches.
I would be glad to build together on shared visions regarding local , small scale, self owned and controlled energy producing capacity on which can rest local and resilient survival systems,
while also considering large scale infrastructure ( jointly owned under a cooperative ? ) in potentially remote areas such as marine geothermal hotspots...
Using the renewable energy available, and find ways to transport it, (but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to energy resource allocation.*[1] )
I could imagine hydrogen being an approach to store and transport energy, though an approach with many challenges - due to its low density, flammability, need for low temperatures to enable liquid hydrogen,...
I am aware there are studies for hydrogen tankers :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_tanker
I am also aware tankers are already used for liquefied gas :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNG_carrier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas
"cooling it to approximately -162 °C (-260 °F).
The reduction in volume makes it much more cost efficient to transport over long distances where pipelines do not exist."
---
Perhaps we could also use huge hydrogen flying Zeppelins to transport hydrogen
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin ),
though due to its high flammability, only transport goods with it, and have a limited crew with "escape" possibilities in case of a sudden explosion...
I also imagine that the "Captive Column" Marc mentions ( www.CaptiveColumn.com <http://www.captivecolumn.com/> )
could be used for the construction of , for example, certain parts of such Zepplin ?
///
I also wish to study the Captive Column further.
Sounds interesting indeed for building windmills.
I am also interested in using it in the context of housing, or nomadic housing :
http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe
///
What financial and legal models can we set up to support such approaches ? Investing current mainstream energy in energy backed tokens ? As with the "grok" which, to my current understanding, enables investments/shares to serve as guarantee in an adapted mutual credit system approach ?
see : http://regional-economic-communities.info/info/newsletters/2011-09-04/
And/or combined with some of Chris Cook's finance/legal models ?
see : http://p2pfoundation.net/Chris_Cook
/// [1] "but potentially also consider tokenization / reification related to energy resource allocation." :
What information system is used ? Does it guarantee for a monetary monopoly ? are there distributed approaches possible ? can it guarantee for energy backed resource allocation information systems in support of networked cooperative production ? - note : Chris Cook may have a lot of experience in relation to such questions.
I also remember some exchanges with Marc Fawzi, when brainstorming with him around http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy )
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 10:51 PM, Mark Roest <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello Dante and Darren,
The inventor of the Bosch Captive Column structural system originally designed it to go past the state of the art in structures in the 1960s, for use in dirigibles which would bring hydrogen from offshore and remote on-shore wind farms to centers of use. He also invented an electrolyzer for separating the hydrogen, and the Poly-turbine windmill geometry, for minimizing the weight and enabling 300-foot diameters.
You can see and learn about the Bosch Captive Column structural system and the Poly-turbine windmill geometry at www.CaptiveColumn.com. I met Lawrence Bosch in October of 1975, and worked with him for ten years. For deep sustainability, the columns and cores can be made of bamboo or kenaf (or fiberglass, corrugated corten steel, or graphite, produced using solar furnaces). The skins have been made with silk, brass-clad steel wire, fiberglass roving run through a resin bath and then a narrow eyelet to remove the excess resin, various sewing threads, glass-reinforced shipping tape, and aramid fiber (Kevlar).
My first design exercise was for the square-rig masts and spars of the Dynaship sailing cargo ship proposal. I came up with 15,000 pounds for a 185-foot tall mast and its 90-foot spars -- vs 185,000 pounds in aluminum or 212,000 pounds in steel for the *badly* designed version a naval architect proposed. The design load was 15 million foot pounds of bending moment at the deck, in a 50-knot wind with all sails set.
You might want to consider alternatives to the dominant 'conventional' engines of today. They are enormously expensive to purchase and maintain, and cost so much to overhaul that they are usually abandoned when they stop working. By supporting a coordinated effort to identify the most appropriate applications for the various sterling-cycle or other engines that use heat to vaporize a fluid, and for entirely different methods of producing and storing motive power or electricity (check Gizmag for a few), we can create policy proposals, correlated to market conditions mapped in geographic information systems, that can lead to a market-forced transportation transformation. (I met Tom Horst, who invented a steam engine drive unit that weighed 50 pounds, had 7 moving parts, and produced 200 brake horsepower at 2,000 rpm, with huge torque from zero rpm, using counter-rotating pistons in a toroidal chamber, in the 1980s; no car or truck manufacturer would touch it because it would obsolete their engine plants.)
Larry and I explored the tension structures industry in the late 1970s and early 1980s; the Captive Column has been tested in column loading, with strength to weight ratio results ranging from 2,000 to 1 up to 5,000 to 1 (using relatively short slenderness ratios). The lower end was made with a balsa wood segmented core, fiberglass pultrusion columns and glass-reinforced shipping tape for the skin! The upper end was a five-foot tall replacement for 1,200 pound criss-cross stacks of timbers for mine-shoring 'cribs' made of aluminum core and fiberglass columns and skin; it weighed 200 pounds and took a load of a million pounds at the Denver Bureau of Mines test center. If you look at the aircraft pontoon structure (double-tapered, about 5 feet across at the center) you can see that the slenderness ratio can be engineered to do whatever you need it to do to support heavy loads in a 'tent' -- whether it is for a small group, or for the equivalent of the Denver or Saudi airports.
The products of the industrial fabric industry can last for decades in extreme climates. But a sustainable marketing process must also be developed to support the kinds of communities you envision. I have ideas for that as well.
I have over 40 years of this kind of thinking ("There is no box!" -- Amory Lovins), and welcome working with you and others who have the Bucky bug. I imprinted on his concept of comprehensive design science in his lecture class at San Jose State University, in the spring semester of 1966.
Regards,
Mark Roest
On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Darren,
I m interested.
By the way, did you have a look into hydrogen powered stuff ? ( using conventional engines ? )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle#Internal_combustion_vehicle
http://www.delicious.com/deliciousdante/hydrogencombustion
( though probably not hydroxi... )
I imagine the hydrogen produced via electrolysis, using renewable energies such as windmills ?
//
example :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Darren Hill <[email protected]>wrote:
Hello Dante,
I've lived on wheels for about half my adult life (4 years from the late eighties and for the last 7 years or so. I've previously thought about similar ideas for a group of permacuture/sustainablity workers, but motorised, (self produced biofuel powered, of course) rather than cycle powered - can carry tools, materials from site to site.
This also gels with a conversation I was just having about mobile housing on twitter, following the UK housing minister suggesting house boats being the answer to the housing crisis in the UK.
Actually also just made me think of a very old Permaculture article - think it was in an old UK photocopied publication (early nineties, Permaculture Magazine?) - proposing sail catamaran dwelling nomadic communities.
I've also been working on ideas for new land owning mutuals in the UK and was thinking that with enough land, mutuals could facilitate nomadic workers travelling from site to site doing seasonal work. Existing UK planning regulations would allow 'temporary' structures for such workers.
Best
Darren
On 28/08/2011 12:49, Dante-Gabryell Monson wrote:
*Possibly some coalition people may be interested in developing such "semi-neo-nomadic" approach together with me ? :)* * * *Feel free to edit - add - delete on this page :* * * *http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe*<http://sharewiki.org/en/Nomad_Tribe>
More below...
////
I ve personally lived a hitch hiking nomad lifestyle for a few years, and find a (semi?) nomad approach of interest ( also see : http://nomadology.com )
I am aware that there is at least one "cycling tribe" roaming in southern france.
Potentially
inter-related recent brainstormings below...
or here :
*" Vision : Semi-Nomad Healing Post-Industrial Tribes + Oasis "*
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/Mq7w-b273OQ
*" Nomad Villages and Parametric Design - Modular Temporary Tensegrity Villages "*
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/K1Ewe5rpfxs
*" Composite Architecture , Textile Buildings , Modular and Nomadic, Dimaxion House, Parametric Design, ... "*
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/N1nt0JNsN7Y
///
via
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/econowmix
RSS feed :
https://groups.google.com/group/econowmix/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml?num=50
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson < [email protected]> wrote:
Brainstorming :
Emerging Tribes of (Cycling?) Nomads,
with various "Specializations" and "Missions/Services", while, each individual as entity capable of general/holistic understanding and/co-learning. and the tribe becoming very experienced in "Collective Intelligence" and "Capability for Emergency Response", along stigmergic tools and practices.
Type of potential mission :
Land healing consulting ; Land Permaculture Set up and consulting, Modular ( tent ? ) constructions, set up of post-industrial production infrastructure, complementary finance and currency consulting, ... etc
////
The tribe could be cycling across europe, staying connected to the internet, having "eclaireurs/scouts" charged of future mission preparations, enabling certain decisions to be co-informed through technology and general assemblies, having rotating and self chosen tasks ( external mission tasks, but also self preservation tasks such as operation of food and kitchen, shelter / tent maintainance, bike maintainance, self-learning support, mutual-caring support, etc )
////
A permanently moving tribe, which can stay on missions in certain places, such as "circuses" used to do, while moving from north to southern europe, according to the seasons.
/////
Land would be put to disposal ( for camping - with special kinds of comfortable and light weight "mobile villages" ) by the farmers or communities that wish to welcome the "nomads" and/or employ them for their services.
////
Money earned could go into maintaining the movement of the collective, with surplus invested in setting up "oasis", which are the movements more permanent "bases", to which nomads can return to.
Investments can be made for infrastructure as to increase progressively autonomy from dependencies on monopolistic economic networks / support diversification,
and investments can also be made in the cheapest land ( within potential for ideal context development ) on which value can then be created outside of monopolistic economic networks.
////
Hence a trans-modern approach to semi-nomadism, such as the nomads who trade salt on their camels, going on expeditions, and then returning to their oasis.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dante-Gabryell Monson <[email protected]> Date: Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 3:02 PM Subject: Nomad Villages and Parametric Design - Modular Temporary Tensegrity Villages To: [email protected]
Additional Brainstorming :
I also imagine such villages of nomads using "modular" tent like structures, using "tensegrity" and "Parametric Design" with 3d modelling calculations, using data about future terrains that will be used for the temporary village, as to "re-assemble" the "tent village" based on all modular lightweight objects available, potential to include or add local materials and soil for temporary constructions, and calculate a re-design for a temporary village,
of which each of the modular components of the tents, which can also use tensegrity approaches,
are then re-calculated in their position, and where each modular element becomes a "spime" with its own uri ( unique resource identifier ) allocated to the rfid ( magnetic ) tag of the object,
hence making it easy for any of the "builders" to follow assembling instructions from their smart phone, based on the re-assembly plans,
as to re-build customized villages ,
after they have been designed using "parametric design" and generative architecture softwares.
http://www.google.be/search?sourceid=chrome&client=ubuntu&channel=cs&ie=UTF-...
also see this post :
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/econowmix/N1nt0JNsN7Y
" Composite Architecture , Textile Buildings , Modular and Nomadic, Dimaxion House, Parametric Design, ..." -- -----------Coalition of the Willing----------- The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
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-- -----------Coalition of the Willing----------- The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus, channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation & keeping up-to-speed.
"BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals, endorsing & signing up for work, and tracking tasks. https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/163 Share the film: http://cotw.me/film ----------------- You are subscribed to [email protected] To unsubscribe email [email protected] For more options http://groups.google.com/group/coalition?hl=en
-- -----------Coalition of the Willing----------- The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus, channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation & keeping up-to-speed.
"BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals, endorsing & signing up for work, and tracking tasks. https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/163 Share the film: http://cotw.me/film ----------------- You are subscribed to [email protected] To unsubscribe email [email protected] For more options http://groups.google.com/group/coalition?hl=en
-- -----------Coalition of the Willing----------- The Coalition occupies several spaces for communication and action. Keep the discussion on this list civil & assume good faith. Strive for brevity.
For the what-why-where of Coalition work, look to http://cotw.cc. That wiki functions as a routing-portal and a locus for some of the work. All group efforts should maintain an updated statement of current focus, channels and spaces of work and anything necessary to support orientation & keeping up-to-speed.
"BetterMeans" is where we coordinate our work: making proposals, endorsing & signing up for work, and tracking tasks. https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/163 Share the film: http://cotw.me/film ----------------- You are subscribed to [email protected] To unsubscribe email [email protected] For more options http://groups.google.com/group/coalition?hl=en