Thank you for this interesting thread ! :) ( on the economy of monasticism ) Could some of us see ourselves in some ways as monastics of a digital / "post print" age ( albeit distributed / spread out ? ) and, if so, still in a stage of formation ? with a convergence of interdependent viable self sustaining production infrastructures still to develop ? Does the approach ( memes ? ) some of us use on this list differ from the communes cited and compared with the monastic communities in that book ? How do monastic or intentional community modes of production , governance and property relate or differ to p2p approaches ? Are such monastic orders "blue" ( authoritarian ), and are intentional communities they are compared to ( from the 60 ies, and after ? ) "green" memes ?<http://www.spiraldynamics-integral.nl/uploads/images/headers/Value_systems.jpg> ( egalitarian ? ) If this emerges as yellow, turquoise and beyond, what would it look like ? How have ( if they have ) old monasteries adapted to changes in memes ? What is the level of interconnected critical diversity required to enable viable self sustaining p2p production / governance / property systems ? What would the relation of a p2p viable system be to space / distance ? Is there anywhere on earth where a diversity of systems, such as documented on p2pfoundation , appropedia, etc already converge as to mutually self sustain ? What would its cost be, in terms of infrastructure development ? ( if/when acquiring production infrastructure on the capitalist monetized markets ) And what transition dependencies does it have in relation to current ( industrial era ? ) infrastructures ? Based on physical distance factors , what have been past conditions of a certain form of emergence, and how would it compare with today ? What would the maps look like, if some aspects of p2p meme development would be considered as colonizing monastics ? Monastics of a certain meme ? Where are such memes most represented and interconnected ? Is there a need for a critical mass combined with a critical diversity within a specific geographical area and along certain levels of interconnectedness within such potential systems ? What would its current main development centres be ? Berlin and San Francisco ? or simply... the internet... and any place with high internet connectivity and creative / information based economies ? And if so, what do we potentially see emerging from a combination of internet and spatial face to face dynamics ? Did our interactions on the internet lead to any of us converging and living together ? ( open source ecology project maybe ? ) On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Kevin F <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Anna,
Monastics also provided services to the communities of which they are a part. In the past the monasteries were great repositories of knowledge. They were not limited to scriptural works alone. In the pre print era scribes also produced copies of philosophical, technical and historical works. They provided opportunities for people to educate themselves and in turn those same people became stewards of that knowledge which was of general benefit to communities that grew up around the monasteries. Now as you say it is true that as celibate institutions they fail to reproduce themselves. However it can also be said that the knowledge of which the monasteries were caretakers contributed to the sustainability and in turn the re-productivity of the lay communities and that seeing monasteries as socially valuable in this way was one reason people from those communities chose to join. Of course this is not the only motivation to join. For some it was to pursue the spiritual life, for others it was to escape poverty, while others joined because of social or family pressure. One of the big rules was that monks and nuns should not own property. If monks or nuns were to have families things become more complicated as humans tend to look out for the welfare of their own before that of the community as a whole. One of the arguments for celibacy in the church is that it acts as an anti corruption measure. When Priests, Abbots and Nuns have families it is easy for mini dynasties to emerge as quite quickly it is the son of the Abbot who inherits his fathers prestigious and influential role. This situation is avoided when they are required to be celibate. The other advantage of a celibate community is that its members have more time to focus on intellectual work. When this is applied to technical problems, inventive and innovative solutions can be shared, improving the health and sustainability of the broader lay community. All of these dynamics change as societies become better off. Today we no longer depend on monasteries to preserve and reproduce important texts. Nor do we depend on them for education or health. None of this was true 500 years ago. As the quality of life improves for people across the globe the appeal of monastic life is waning. Everywhere fewer and fewer young people are taking vocations. The tables have turned in a way. While at one time communities depended on monasteries today most monasteries depend heavily on charity. What they have to offer society more generally has come into question and their futures are indeed uncertain. I do not wish to romanticise the historical role of monasteries, I just want to point out that their social function has changed over time. While I agree that today these institutions have become in some sense parasitic my point is that it was not always so. What I gained from reading this paper was more from the analysis of incentives and motivations both of which can be applied to analysis of intentional communities. Also worth considering is the power of shared values that may be not be so strong in more secular arrangements.
Regards
Kevin
On 30 January 2013 19:22, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
The element left out of this analysis is the fact that monasteries are single sex establishments which do not have to cope with child rearing. They are therefor parasitic in the sense that they live off the produce of the society at large which provides them with the personnel while leaving them free to indulge in their 'spiritual capital'.
There is no doubt in my mind that child rearing is the most difficult and undervalued profession, since it is performed in the main voluntarily by untrained people out of love, and therefore does not appear to require any specific investment. Consequently it can be ignored as in the above discussion as though living in a secular socialist commune could be compared to living in a monastery.
I am not decrying the need for a spiritual element in helping to sustain indivuals and groups. Indeed I think it is essential to bring meaning in the present situation of imminent 'collapse of civilisation', but it needs to be able to be interwoven into our everyday lives, not hived off into separate cloisters which may be beneficial for the inmates but do not really contribute to the sustenance of the rest of us.
Anna
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 7:05 AM, Kevin F <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello,
I've been reading 'The Economics of Monasticism by Nathan Smith' over the past week. He makes some interesting points in comparing the sustainability of intentional communities with that of Christian monasteries. Citing a study by Rost et al (2008) that "An average longevity of 463 years makes monasteries more durable not only than firms, but even than most states." and further suggesting possibilities as to what makes them so successful.
I will add it to the wiki when I get a chance over the coming days.
The Economics of Monasticism - Nathan Smith
"Since their emergence in ancient times, Christian monasteries have proven to be among the most durable of all human institutions, and in the medieval centuries made enormous contributions to the emergence of Western civilization. They are organized internally on socialist lines: monks own no property and owe total obedience to the abbot, making the monastery a miniature ‘centrally planned economy.’ A puzzling contrast exists between the longevity of monasteries and the transience of secular socialist communes. This paper presents a theoretical model which shows why voluntary socialist communes might be viable despite ‘shirking’ problems, yet fail due to turnover, and how worship, which induces people with high ‘spiritual capital’ to self-select into the monastery and then grows that spiritual capital through ‘learning-by-doing,’ can solve the turnover problem and make a worship-based socialist commune—a monastery—stable. Monasticism, like the market, is a form of ‘spontaneous order,’ but unlike the market, it does not depend on third-party enforcement (e.g., by a state) to function: this explains why monasticism (unlike capitalism) was able to thrive in the anarchic Dark Ages. Monasteries, in principle and largely in practice, are a form of society based on consent of the governed, unlike liberal states which preach but do not practice consensual governance, and it is interesting to juxtapose the real, live ‘social contracts’ of the monasteries with the notional social contracts of liberal political theory."
http://www.thearda.com/workingpapers/monasticism.asp
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