Thank you Devin. While I appreciate Kevin’s sincerity-I see him in an alternate universe. If it came to fruition, I think the unintended consequences would be a “Mad Max” world of gang violence as opinions wavered on the legitimacy of Big D or little d rights/privileges depending on the location &moment- or govt imposed tyranny. Nation States exist, and they have borders that are much more than mathematical crosshairs on the globe. You can’t throw away thousands of years of civilizations’ attempt to codify property and human rights & obligations. The best we can do is encourage/support individuals to be more responsible citizens (of their respective nations)which includes reining in the corrupt govt/corporatist/military collusion that restrains all our progress. From: Devin Balkind Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:42 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Libertarians Just some quick thoughts: Michel - I'd imagine - would rather the government have all the guns and trust that they'll use them to enforce equality than to have faith in the people and their capacity to organize. If you have communautarian feelings then express them through actions - not taxes. Ron Paul finds the federal government an unacceptable entity to force people to use their private property in a particular way. I might disagree with the extent to which he applies his philosophy but I respect it enough not to demonize it. Every nation has a unique history and identity. I think we should encourage political differentiation within the framework of increasing people's access to technologies that enable them to escape coercion by becoming more self sufficient. On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: I think that this is the heart of the matter and an obvious difference between 'left' and 'right' approaches' it's really about how far you extend the circle of care .. for right-minded people it's nearly always about 'just for us' and they can have deep communautarian feelings (except probably for committed anarcho-capitalists who only believe in individual contracting and full commodification of all things), by contrast the left wants to extend it. ron paul finds it acceptable to refuse entry to black people on the basis of property rights, something no person on the left could tolerate ... natalie explicetely rejects the quest for equality even thought the revolt against inequality is at the heart of this movement .. but we can find commonality around freedom .. though of course, freedom without equality is a chimera, as you need a gun to protect you from your neighbour ... and the greatest the differential, the greater number of guns needed (now nearly a quarter of the workforce ?) Michel On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulot cakis <[email protected]> wrote: That is what a conservative libertarian would say. ''Protect the liberty of a certain group of people, for example the american people. This is how the greek athenian democrarcry worked as well. It wars a democracy for menr. But if we start thinking about liberty to a set of people we end up with the conclusion that everyone is a libertarian (take as a set only yourself ). That would make the use of the word libertarian unnecessary (as we all are libertarians). Since the word is used to differentiate between people, we end up through Reductio ad absurdum that your defintion of libertarian is wrong. We also end up with the conclusion that you are not a libertarian. As a personal remark, I would say that such a wrong definition of libertarian was always used as an excuse to diminish the liberties of others. (reading math.. right now) 2011/10/17 Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> Nations still exist. You can be a libertarian with regards to the rights/responsibilities/privileges/policies of your own citizens wo extending them to the universal _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- Sincerely yours, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- Devin Balkind Director, Sarapis Foundation [email protected] @devinbalkind -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation