<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div></div><div>So what does that say about the two 'economics experts'? </div><div><br>On 2 Aug 2016, at 08:21, Pat Conaty <<a href="mailto:pat.commonfutures@phonecoop.coop">pat.commonfutures@phonecoop.coop</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252">Anna<div><br></div><div>I hear you but and collective responsibility is key and in his style he is miles away from the presidential diktats of a Blair. All to the good for sure but team work</div><div>and solidarity is key.</div><div><br></div><div>As the MP trade unionist in his shadow cabinet points out, he undermined her efforts that other trade unionists were behind and she is someone</div><div>fully in support of bringing railways back into public ownership. So it is a two way street here needed.</div><div><br></div><div>But the other major problem is the theoretical analysis of what needs to be done and how to do it. I hear yesterday two members of the Economics Committee set up by Corbyn and McDonnell have gone over to Owen Smith who has come out on an anti-austerity ticket but worked for Pfizer???</div><div><br></div><div>So there is a major problem here if Corbyn (whose integrity is solid) loses all such experts as many are sound.</div><div><br></div><div>Pat</div><div><br><div><div>On 2 Aug 2016, at 07:36, Anna Harris <<a href="mailto:anna@shsh.co.uk">anna@shsh.co.uk</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div dir="auto"><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div></div><div>I've read other MP's experiences with Corbyn where they feel disappointed and let down, so this doesn't surprise me. They are on Facebook and Twitter. No secret that he is not a good leader, not much of a team player. He is probably also on a steep learning curve, and has had to withstand such a battering during these few weeks that I would say it is impossible to judge him on his record over this time. </div><div><br></div><div>But it is not up to us to assess him, to be worried, or concerned that he is not 'up to the job'. In my opinion anyone in that position can be pulled to pieces quite easily. He is just a human being, and that is how up to now, he presents himself. We don't need him to be more than that. </div><div><br></div><div> We know that he comes over as a different type of politician, and that he has a lot of popular support. Those are significant qualities. The most we can hope is to surround him with supporters like Madron who could really help him go in the direction he wants to go, but probably doesn't have much idea how to make it happen. </div><div><br></div><div>Anna</div><div><br>On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:52, Pat Conaty <<a href="mailto:pat.commonfutures@phonecoop.coop">pat.commonfutures@phonecoop.coop</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252">Hi Anna<div><br></div><div>Michel and I are discussing these matters with other colleagues. A close colleague, Henry Tam, who was a senior civil servant</div><div>under Labour before 2010 and set up a creative Empowerment Fund for grassroots projects. This did lots of good work. </div><div><br></div><div>He has been hopeful about Corbyn. But having seen at first hand politicians at their worst and best he now has his concerns.</div><div><br></div><div>He shared this speech a few days ago from a Labour MP and active trade unionist. She highlights some things that Gary Younge raised his worries about.</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.liliangreenwood.co.uk/lilian_s_speech_to_nottingham_south_labour_party_members">http://www.liliangreenwood.co.uk/lilian_s_speech_to_nottingham_south_labour_party_members</a></div><div><br></div><div>Pat</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:44, Anna Harris <<a href="mailto:anna@shsh.co.uk">anna@shsh.co.uk</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div dir="auto"><div></div><div>Thanks for these links Pat, and any others you think would be helpful.</div><div><br></div><div>Anna</div><div><br>On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:32, Pat Conaty <<a href="mailto:pat.commonfutures@phonecoop.coop">pat.commonfutures@phonecoop.coop</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252">Michel<div><br></div><div>Not sure about the internal politics within the team. A number left in the team are good experts.</div><div><br></div><div>But my point is that several elements have to be aligned. A new accountable leadership style for sure as the article you shared makes clear.</div><div>Then a creative use of complexity theory in practice.</div><div><br></div><div>But also if the theory of new economics is not sound then this impacts on the programmes. Not due to leadership but because of a faulty understanding and analysis.</div><div><br></div><div>For example Richard Murphy from the UK Tax Justice Network was not selected to be in the Corbyn advice team whereas last summer he was guiding Corbyn</div><div>on Peoples QE that was popular with people in the Labour party who voted for Corbyn. Since then these ideas have been not on the agenda and what Ingham calls for</div><div>is not far removed from Murphy’s thinking and guidance.</div><div><br></div><div>All the best</div><div><br></div><div>Pat</div><div><br><div><div>On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:20, Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">thanks for the details Pat,<div><br></div><div>I remember critiques that Jeremy was not a good listener and did not work well with his advisory team,</div><div><br></div><div>Michel</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 11:07 PM, Pat Conaty <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pat.commonfutures@phonecoop.coop" target="_blank">pat.commonfutures@phonecoop.coop</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hi Michel<div><br></div><div>This is a good piece on complexity theory and participative politics that Anna Harris has shared. As I have mentioned, this way forward is great and also the</div><div>work of Stafford Beer on viable systems theory for intensifying co-operative forms of democracy. But I only wish Corbyn was moving in this</div><div>direction. Not questioning his good will to do so and his integrity of course but little evidence of this yet emerging. See the relatively recent Gary Younge article below when there</div><div>were three leaders in the race for Labour party leader, now just Smith and Corbyn.</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/13/corbyn-critics-destroying-labour-party-members" target="_blank">https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/13/corbyn-critics-destroying-labour-party-members</a></div><div><br></div><div>But in addition to complexity management and new forms of leadership, there is the need for a deeper understanding of economics and what is money. This question is the</div><div>Elephant in the room as Geoffrey Ingham explained and that all socialists need to get to grips with. The Economic Advisory Committee advising</div><div>Corbyn are all left of centre economists but even Piketty and Stiglitz have a poor analysis of What is money as Ingham highlights below. </div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/geoffrey-ingham/whose-money-is-it" target="_blank">https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/geoffrey-ingham/whose-money-is-it</a></div><div><br></div><div>Corbyn and other anti-austerity politicians thus lacks guidance on this question that is crucial for developing alternative economic strategies.</div><div><br></div><div><div>Ingham is a professor at Cambridge. He is a socialist and in his book, The Nature of Money, he shows that unfortunately Marx got the money question wrong. Despite some great insights, fundamentally Marx concluded that money was a commodity. He took this from Aristotle. The real truth is that it is not a commodity but a social technology as David Graeber has shown.</div><div><br></div><div>However as Ingham observes, this errant view of Marx has sent most of the left down the wrong road to understand money and hence most of the left is blind on this question. From a theoretical perspective this is a fatal flaw. Ingham argues so well that we need to revisit the What is money debates from the 1920s and folk like Gesell and also Douglas and social credit ideas as these show where the real answers are. Ingham calls for a public social partnership on monetary and banking reform to replace the oppressive and toxic public private partnership destroying both society and ecology and leading us in to relentless wars defending geopolitical turf over oil and other resources.</div></div><div><br></div><div>All the best</div><div><br></div><div>Pat</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On 1 Aug 2016, at 09:16, Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">dear Pat, has anything been written on the contrary view that was reported on in that other discussion ?<div><br></div><div>Michel</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Anna Harris <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:anna@shsh.co.uk" target="_blank">anna@shsh.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=""><div dir="auto"><div><b>The Corbyn Model of Leadership</b></div><div><b>Of all the people currently in leadership positions in a major political party anywhere in the world, Jeremy Corbyn is the only one who shows the potential of being a leader who could begin to manage successfully the complex problems that all of our societies have to face in the coming decades.</b></div><div><b><br></b></div><div>Brilliant article, first I've seen really understanding what Corbyn is trying to do.</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://medium.com/@ROY_MADRON/the-corbyn-model-of-leadership-a7a006405f27#.hyj8ckaw2" target="_blank">https://medium.com/@ROY_MADRON/the-corbyn-model-of-leadership-a7a006405f27#.hyj8ckaw2</a></div><div></div></div><br></span>_______________________________________________<br>
NetworkedLabour mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NetworkedLabour@lists.contrast.org" target="_blank">NetworkedLabour@lists.contrast.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div>-- <br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: <a href="http://commonstransition.org/" target="_blank">http://commonstransition.org</a> </div><div><br></div>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br><br><a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank"></a>Updates: <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br><br>#82 on the (En)Rich list: <a href="http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/" target="_blank">http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/</a> <br></div></div></div>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: <a href="http://commonstransition.org/" target="_blank">http://commonstransition.org</a> </div><div><br></div>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br><br><a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank"></a>Updates: <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br><br>#82 on the (En)Rich list: <a href="http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/" target="_blank">http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/</a> <br></div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></body></html>