<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><b><i>"Distinguishing between entrenched 'power over' and hierarchy that for the moment responds to local needs, seems important".</i></b></span></font></blockquote><div><br></div>This quote from your response Denis, is for me the key to preventing individuals from exerting 'entrenched' power over others. We need as you say, for people to acknowledge and be able to express the different skills and talents they have, in response to local and temporal needs, without this establishing a 'right', or hierarchy which extends beyond those needs. I would see such extended rights or roles as arising partially in response to the need to secure reward of some kind within a system based on artificial scarcity as we have within Capitalism. </div><div><br></div><div>Michel's Equipotentiality envisages no fixed roles. But it would seem to me that 'contributory roles' are likely to give rise to some form of hierarchy, ie extended rights based on a person's contribution. Also I see them rising out of fear, fear that people will not contribute unless they have some incentive, like social recognition. The understanding that it is natural, inherent, to want to contribute, is absent from this analysis.</div><div><br></div><div>The only equality that really matters as Marx saw clearly, is that based on a person's need. Free sunglasses are no good to a blind man. Which is where clarifying our needs with Marshall Rosenberg's Non Violent Communication is helpful. <a href="http://www.nonviolentcommunication">http://www.nonviolentcommunication</a>. According to Marshall human needs are universal, though we may use different strategies to achieve those needs. And sometimes our strategies don't meet our needs at all. This leads us back to human beings being essentially equal, since we all have the same needs. Once we recognise that, adjusting our strategies to better meet our needs becomes easier.</div><div><br></div><div>The inner tyrant, together with the inner victim, are strategies we have used to protect ourselves from difficult or painful situations, which have become entrenched, both inside us, and in the external world. Fathers being more involved in childcare may help towards using less dominator strategies to achieve our need for peace and harmony. Many factors will play a part in this, and I agree with you Denis when you conclude "<b><i>a <span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">politics of resistance or renewal, or innovation that doesn't have this worked through seems very likely to reproduce, in subtle and unsubtle ways, some continuation of the historic trajectory of power relations we are on."</span></i></b></div><div><b><i><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></i></b></div><div>Anna</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>On 4 Sep 2015, at 06:46, Denis Postle <<a href="mailto:denis.postle@gmail.com">denis.postle@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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Hello Anna, some further thoughts.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/08/2015 21:06, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anna@shsh.co.uk">anna@shsh.co.uk</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
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<div>Denis, thanks for your comments. I'm not sure I share your
optimism that the 'massive improvement in childcare <span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">towards a
more child-centred formation, with more present fathers, may
be leading to a different, less domineering politics.'</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
re the r/evolution in child-care <i>History of Childhood</i> ed.
Lloyd deMause is very informative.
<blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
<div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">However
it would be helpful to expand on how we might deal with our
inner tyrants. </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I guess it is obvious that inner tyrants mirror outer tyranny and
any change requires attention to both. However we have to start from
where we are.<br>
<br>
So three things we can do: 1. become aware of the extent to which
domination is 'naturalised'. I have given up taking any more
pictures of the ads for films on London buses that feature a man
(and sometimes a woman) with a gun. See the large collection of
such social media and environmental dominance at <a href="http://poastell.jalbum.net/Cultures%20of%20Domination/">http://poastell.jalbum.net/Cultures%20of%20Domination/</a>
be sure to scroll through the images full size.<br>
<br>
2. We can be diligent about eliminating from our own behaviour,
coercion, bullying, threat, manipulation, and undue deference, ie
model facilitation, influence and negotiation plus resistance to
abuse<br>
<br>
3. We can engage in deep psychological inquiry into our historical
formation and its influence on our interpersonal and social
relations.<br>
<br>
Perhaps this is familiar to most readers here?<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
<div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Power
as you say is very entrenched into our everyday social
relationships. Is there a possibility of seeing each other
as essentially equal, in spite of differences in wealth,
status, education, ability, beauty, all the standards we use
to feel superior or inferior to each other, and many of
these have objective measurements which validate such
judgements, and thus feel like facts we can't avoid. </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
In the <a href="http://i-p-n.org/">IPN</a> commons there have been
some lively discussions with participants who are strongly
suspicious of hierarchy and who favour some kind of absolute
equality. I tend to feel that It is one thing to 'see each other as
essentially equal' but also, not to deny intrinsic hierarchies of
skill and experience. Distinguishing between entrenched 'power over'
and hierarchy that for the moment responds to local needs, seems
important.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
<div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">We
may prefer to believe that people are naturally unequal and
therefore treating people as if they are equal is denying
reality. </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
As with other human condition tasks, when the organic and historic
roots of 'liking' are so deeply (and unawarely) embedded, it can be
tricky to honour each other's intrinsic uniqueness. A politics of
resistance or renewal, or innovation that doesn't have this worked
through seems very likely to reproduce, in subtle and unsubtle ways,
some continuation of the historic trajectory of power relations we
are on. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
<div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">All
this is of course pertinent to the underlying philosophy of
capitalism</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Yes indeed, for instance compound interest! I wonder how any of this
sits with you? (and anyone else, if there is anyone reading us)<br>
<br>
Denis <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
<div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">I
would welcome your further thoughts on this.</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Anna</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
On 31 Aug 2015, at 08:28, Denis Postle <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:denis.postle@gmail.com">denis.postle@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
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<br>
Thanks for this Anna, I had missed the earlier messages. <br>
<br>
I agree that this list like most of the rest of the world,
often seems in the hidden grip of patriarchy. e.g. the tit
for tat listing of significant womanly voices. Yours is very
welcome here.<br>
<br>
With one caveat, unless and until significant numbers of us,
including women, deal with our inner tyrants 'dominance' as
'natural' and 'normal' and even 'inevitable', will continue.
The caveat, that as the psycho-historians have pointed out,
the massive improvement in childcare towards a more
child-centred formation, with more present fathers, may be
leading to a different, less domineering politics. Let's
hope so. The alternative means today's men (and women)
giving up a devotion to power that tends to be deeply and
often unawarely embedded. <br>
<br>
Denis<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 30/08/2015 09:20, <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anna@shsh.co.uk">anna@shsh.co.uk</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:D4474FD9-4C22-4A16-B0BC-054188E3E323@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
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charset=utf-8">
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charset=utf-8">
<div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">My original intention in pointing out
the lack of women contributors to this book was
not to give rise to the game of 'tit for tat', in
terms of equalising numbers of men and women, that
is the direction the discussion seems to have
taken.</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">My comments were motivated by the fear
that these essays, and I haven't read them,
express the deep schism with nature and reality of
the patriarchal and dominator culture in which we
live, which is taking us towards self
extermination. That the lack of women contributors
could be, and it was a question, pointing to
ignoring the part women need to play in shaping
our future.</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">Below Ted Goertzel writes: </span>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">Already today,<br>
gender is becoming a choice rather than
something biologically determined,<br>
presumably that will be more so as
technology improves. Will men be able to<br>
get surgery enabling them to get pregnant
and give birth? Or will that<br>
function be taken over by incubators?
Will we be able to have both male<br>
and female sexual organs, as some animals
and plants do? </span></font></blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
I fear that technology is going in the direction of
what is possible rather than what is desirable. And
the thrill and excitement of wondrous achievements
are disconnected from what it means to be truly
ourselves, to feel whole and fulfilled.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anna<br>
<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,
0);"><br>
<br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);"><br>
</span><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,
0);">On 29 Aug 2015, at 06:43, Dante-Gabryell
Monson <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,
0);">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: "Weaver" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:silkenweaver@gmail.com">silkenweaver@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: 29 Aug 2015 01:24<br>
Subject: Re: Fwd for Ted Goertzel<br>
To: <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be">gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
<br type="attribution">
</span></font>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);"><br>
</span></font>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 10:00
PM, goertzel <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:goertzel@camden.rutgers.edu" target="_blank">goertzel@camden.rutgers.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</span></font>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255,
255, 255, 0);">It seems to me that
both science fiction and futurist
writing in general are largely male
domains. There are some exceptions,
such as Charlotte Perkins Gilman's
Herland</span></font></blockquote>
</div>
<font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_Lessing" target="_blank">Doris Lessing</a>, also
Nobel prize laureate in literature
(Canopus in Argos series))<br>
<br>
</span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">Mary Shelly (Frankenstein)<br>
<br>
Ursula K. LeGuin (Left hand of Darkness!!!
- a groundbreaking work of feminist
science fiction and many others)<br>
</span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);"><br>
C.J. Cherryh (Hugo Award for Down Below
Station)<br>
<br>
</span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">Connie Willis ( 11 Hugo awards +
7 Nebula awards, more than any other
author ever!)<br>
<br>
</span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">Just to name a few SF giantesses
and futurists... :-) See also: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/dec/08/top10s.science.fiction.women" target="_blank">Gwyneth Jones's top 10
science fiction by women writers</a><br>
<br>
</span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">Not so male domain after all...<br>
</span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);"></span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">Weaver<br>
</span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
On 29 Aug 2015, at 06:42, Dante-Gabryell Monson <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded
message ----------<br>
From: "goertzel" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:goertzel@camden.rutgers.edu">goertzel@camden.rutgers.edu</a>><br>
Date: 28 Aug 2015 23:00<br>
Subject: Re: Fwd for Ted Goertzel<br>
To: <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be">gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
<br type="attribution">
It seems to me that both science fiction and
futurist writing in general are largely male
domains. There are some exceptions, such as
Charlotte Perkins Gilman's Herland. I don't know
if Ayn Rand counts as a futurist, but she
certainly has been influential, albeit with a very
sexist view of the world. Perhaps men are more
inclined to abstract thought not grounded so
directly in experience. In The End of the
Beginning we were trying to move to focus to the
more immediate future which is challenging.<br>
<br>
The second most influential secular book of the
19th Century was Looking Backward by Edward
Bellamy. But the most influential was Harriet
Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin. I don't know
if the difference between the two is suggestive of
the difference between male and female writers
generally, but it is suggestive.<br>
<br>
On 2015-08-28 13:59, Jayne Gackenbach wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex"> Thanks Ted for your
qualifiers which are excellent points - your<br>
right re our book being more about self and yes
women do drift to that<br>
and further to be fair the VR and digital
physics sections (changes<br>
and views of reality) are all authored by men,
but one - me -<br>
anyway while i appreciate the popular press
emphasis on gender<br>
switching, the reality is that it is a very
small percentage of the<br>
population - maybe leading edge - hard to say -
my point is more along<br>
the lines of Wilber's take on gender differences
in various<br>
transpersonal practices - he comments that men
want to stare at walls<br>
while women want to hold and embrace and feel -
this is of course a<br>
bit simplistic but the dominance of male views
in the whole idea of<br>
transcending consciousness as a sort of silent
stillness or blank or<br>
pure consciousness is fine but the woman's
engaged, active, and<br>
intuitive perspective takes the experient in a
different direction -<br>
how is this related to the issues at hand here -
perhaps in how the<br>
questions are asked?<br>
<br>
Jayne<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Francis Heylighen" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:fheyligh@vub.ac.be" target="_blank">fheyligh@vub.ac.be</a>><br>
To: "Global Brain Discussion" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be" target="_blank">gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be</a>><br>
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 11:07:22 AM GMT
-07:00 US/Canada Mountain<br>
Subject: Fwd for Ted Goertzel<br>
<br>
[This was rejected by the mailing list, probably
because Ted is<br>
subscribed at the different address than the one
he sent this from.]<br>
<br>
From: Ted Goertzel <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:tedgoertzel@gmail.com" target="_blank">tedgoertzel@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
"Boundaries of Self and Reality" sounds
psychological, which may explain<br>
why it interested more women. It is also about
current reality, not the<br>
Singularity or the Global Brain. So far as I
know, no one, male or female,<br>
has written about gender issues related to the
Singularity. Ben wrote the<br>
chapter on The Future of Human Nature in our
book, but I don't recall that<br>
he discussed gender differences.<br>
<br>
I think we might interest Humanity+ press on a
book on gender and the<br>
singularity if someone were to volunteer to
organize one. Already today,<br>
gender is becoming a choice rather than
something biologically determined,<br>
presumably that will be more so as technology
improves. Will men be able to<br>
get surgery enabling them to get pregnant and
give birth? Or will that<br>
function be taken over by incubators? Will we
be able to have both male<br>
and female sexual organs, as some animals and
plants do? If our life span<br>
is greatly extended, will we be able to have
generations of children? What<br>
would we like the Singularity to bring?<br>
<br>
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Jayne
Gackenbach <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jayneg@athabascau.ca" target="_blank">jayneg@athabascau.ca</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex"> As a woman who is
editing a book for Elsevier along the same
lines as<br>
Ben's, if a bit narrower, called "Boundaries
of Self and Reality Online",<br>
we have 18 contributing chapters lined up of
which five are authored by<br>
women. Maybe women need to ask women.<br>
Jayne<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Ben Goertzel" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ben@goertzel.org" target="_blank">ben@goertzel.org</a>><br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be" target="_blank">gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be</a><br>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 2:03:28 AM
GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain<br>
Subject: Re: Book "The End of the Beginning"
finally published!<br>
<br>
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 3:55 PM,
Dante-Gabryell Monson<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com" target="_blank">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> after forwarding this message about the
book, I was asked why there are<br>
only<br>
> men within the author list ?<br>
<br>
<br>
Well, we made a web page for the book and sent
out a bunch of emails<br>
and social media announcements soliciting
authors.... Adult males<br>
were the ones who responded by sending
chapters.... The author list<br>
wasn't restricted to our chums, though many
who responded were in fact<br>
our chums...<br>
<br>
I did make an effort to get
geographical/cultural representation ...<br>
but it happened that of the African and Asian
transhumanists I<br>
solicited, the ones who responded favorably
and wanted to submit<br>
chapters, were both young males...<br>
<br>
So I think this really reduces to the question
of why the overall<br>
topic of the Singularity, transhumanism and
advanced tech appeals to<br>
men more than women.... When I used to
organize transhumanist<br>
conferences, recruiting one or two good
on-topic female speakers was<br>
always something I had to explicitly strive
for... I generally found<br>
men more eager to push themselves forward and
advertise themselves in<br>
this way, than women...<br>
<br>
(Note, I am simply being empirical in the
above observations, not<br>
making any hypotheses about the causes....
But I note that when I<br>
was working in psychology for a while in the
90s, things I organized<br>
attracted a high proportion of females.... So
this doesn't seem to be<br>
an artifact of my or Ted's personal styles,
but more of the subject<br>
area...)<br>
<br>
-- Ben<br>
<br>
-- Ben<br>
<br>
--<br>
This communication is intended for the use
of the recipient to whom it<br>
is addressed, and may contain
confidential, personal, and or privileged<br>
information. Please contact us immediately
if you are not the intended<br>
recipient of this communication, and do
not copy, distribute, or take<br>
action relying on it. Any communications
received in error, or<br>
subsequent reply, should be deleted or
destroyed.<br>
---<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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