<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div><blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><b><i>"Distinguishing between entrenched 'power over' and hierarchy that for the moment responds to local needs, seems important".</i></b></span></font></blockquote><div><br></div>This quote from your response Denis, is for me the key to preventing individuals from exerting 'entrenched' power over others. We need as you say, for people to acknowledge and be able to express the different skills and talents they have, in response to local and temporal needs, without this establishing a 'right', or hierarchy which extends beyond those needs. I would see such extended rights or roles as arising partially in response to the need to secure reward of some kind within a system based on artificial scarcity as we have within Capitalism.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Michel's Equipotentiality envisages no fixed roles. But it would seem to me that 'contributory roles' are likely to give rise to some form of hierarchy, ie extended rights based on a person's contribution. Also I see them rising out of fear, fear that people will not contribute unless they have some incentive, like social recognition. The understanding that it is natural, inherent, to want to contribute, is absent from this analysis.</div><div><br></div><div>The only equality that really matters as Marx saw clearly, is that based on a person's need. Free sunglasses are no good to a blind man. Which is where clarifying our needs with Marshall Rosenberg's Non Violent Communication is helpful.&nbsp;<a href="http://www.nonviolentcommunication">http://www.nonviolentcommunication</a>. According to Marshall human needs are universal, though we may use different strategies to achieve those needs. And sometimes our strategies don't meet our needs at all. This leads us back to human beings being essentially equal, since we all have the same needs. Once we recognise that, adjusting our strategies to better meet our needs becomes easier.</div><div><br></div><div>The inner tyrant, together with the inner victim, are strategies we have used to protect ourselves from difficult or painful situations, which have become entrenched, both inside us, and in the external world. Fathers being more involved in childcare may help towards using less dominator strategies to achieve our need for peace and harmony. Many factors will play a part in this, and I agree with you Denis when you conclude "<b><i>a&nbsp;<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">politics of resistance or renewal, or innovation that doesn't have this worked through seems very likely to reproduce, in subtle and unsubtle ways, some continuation of the historic trajectory of power relations we are on."</span></i></b></div><div><b><i><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></i></b></div><div>Anna</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>On 4 Sep 2015, at 06:46, Denis Postle &lt;<a href="mailto:denis.postle@gmail.com">denis.postle@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
  
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    Hello Anna, some further thoughts.<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/08/2015 21:06, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anna@shsh.co.uk">anna@shsh.co.uk</a>
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
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        <div>Denis, thanks for your comments. I'm not sure I share your
          optimism that the 'massive improvement in childcare <span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">towards a
            more child-centred formation, with more present fathers, may
            be leading to a different, less domineering politics.'</span></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    re the r/evolution in child-care <i>History of Childhood</i> ed.
    Lloyd deMause is very informative.
    <blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
      <div>
        <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>
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        <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">However


            it would be helpful to expand on how we might deal with our
            inner tyrants. </span></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I guess it is obvious that inner tyrants mirror outer tyranny and
    any change requires attention to both. However we have to start from
    where we are.<br>
    <br>
    So three things we can do: 1. become aware of the extent to which
    domination is 'naturalised'. I have given up taking any more
    pictures of the ads for films on London buses that feature a man
    (and sometimes a woman)&nbsp; with a gun. See the large collection of
    such social media and environmental dominance at <a href="http://poastell.jalbum.net/Cultures%20of%20Domination/">http://poastell.jalbum.net/Cultures%20of%20Domination/</a>
    be sure to scroll through the images full size.<br>
    <br>
    2. We can be diligent about eliminating from our own behaviour,
    coercion, bullying, threat, manipulation, and undue deference, ie
    model facilitation, influence and negotiation plus resistance to
    abuse<br>
    <br>
    3. We can engage in deep psychological inquiry into our historical
    formation and its influence on our interpersonal and social
    relations.<br>
    <br>
    Perhaps this is familiar to most readers here?<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
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        <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Power


            as you say is very entrenched into our everyday social
            relationships. Is there a possibility of seeing each other
            as essentially equal, in spite of differences in wealth,
            status, education, ability, beauty, all the standards we use
            to feel superior or inferior to each other, and many of
            these have objective measurements which validate such
            judgements, and thus feel like facts we can't avoid. </span></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    In the <a href="http://i-p-n.org/">IPN</a> commons there have been
    some lively discussions with participants who are strongly
    suspicious of hierarchy and who favour some kind of absolute
    equality. I tend to feel that It is one thing to 'see each other as
    essentially equal' but also, not to deny intrinsic hierarchies of
    skill and experience. Distinguishing between entrenched 'power over'
    and hierarchy that for the moment responds to local needs, seems
    important.<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
      <div>
        <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">We
            may prefer to believe that people are naturally unequal and
            therefore treating people as if they are equal is denying
            reality. </span></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    As with other human condition tasks, when the organic and historic
    roots of 'liking' are so deeply (and unawarely) embedded, it can be
    tricky to honour each other's intrinsic uniqueness. A politics of
    resistance or renewal, or innovation that doesn't have this worked
    through seems very likely to reproduce, in subtle and unsubtle ways,
    some continuation of the historic trajectory of power relations we
    are on. <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
      <div>
        <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">All
            this is of course pertinent to the underlying philosophy of
            capitalism</span></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Yes indeed, for instance compound interest! I wonder how any of this
    sits with you? (and anyone else, if there is anyone reading us)<br>
    <br>
    Denis <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:A0633BD9-09FD-4B4B-B3D4-B901D7ED9525@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
      <div>
        <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>
          </span></div>
        <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">I
            would welcome your further thoughts on this.</span></div>
        <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>
          </span></div>
        <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Anna</span></div>
        <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>
          </span></div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
          <br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
          On 31 Aug 2015, at 08:28, Denis Postle &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:denis.postle@gmail.com">denis.postle@gmail.com</a>&gt;


          wrote:<br>
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            Thanks for this Anna, I had missed the earlier messages. <br>
            <br>
            I agree that this list like most of the rest of the world,
            often seems in the hidden grip of patriarchy. e.g. the tit
            for tat listing of significant womanly voices. Yours is very
            welcome here.<br>
            <br>
            With one caveat, unless and until significant numbers of us,
            including women, deal with our inner tyrants 'dominance' as
            'natural' and 'normal' and even 'inevitable', will continue.
            The caveat, that as the psycho-historians have pointed out,
            the massive improvement in childcare towards a more
            child-centred formation, with more present fathers, may be
            leading to a different, less domineering politics. Let's
            hope so. The alternative means today's men (and women)
            giving up a devotion to power that tends to be deeply and
            often unawarely embedded. <br>
            <br>
            Denis<br>
            <br>
            <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 30/08/2015 09:20, <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anna@shsh.co.uk">anna@shsh.co.uk</a> wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote cite="mid:D4474FD9-4C22-4A16-B0BC-054188E3E323@shsh.co.uk" type="cite">
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                  <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                      255, 0);">My original intention in pointing out
                      the lack of women contributors to this book was
                      not to give rise to the game of 'tit for tat', in
                      terms of equalising numbers of men and women, that
                      is the direction the discussion seems to have
                      taken.</span></div>
                  <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                      255, 0);"><br>
                    </span></div>
                  <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                      255, 0);">My comments were motivated by the fear
                      that these essays, and I haven't read them,
                      express the deep schism with nature and reality of
                      the patriarchal and dominator culture in which we
                      live, which is taking us towards self
                      extermination. That the lack of women contributors
                      could be, and it was a question, pointing to
                      ignoring the part women need to play in shaping
                      our future.</span></div>
                  <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                      255, 0);"><br>
                    </span></div>
                  <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                      255, 0);">Below Ted Goertzel writes:&nbsp;</span>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:
                          0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
                          border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);
                          padding-left: 1ex;"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);">Already today,<br>
                              gender is becoming a choice rather than
                              something biologically determined,<br>
                              presumably that will be more so as
                              technology improves. Will men be able to<br>
                              get surgery enabling them to get pregnant
                              and give birth?&nbsp; Or will that<br>
                              function be taken over by incubators?&nbsp;
                              Will we be able to have both male<br>
                              and female sexual organs, as some animals
                              and plants do?&nbsp;</span></font></blockquote>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    I fear that technology is going in the direction of
                    what is possible rather than what is desirable. And
                    the thrill and excitement of wondrous achievements
                    are disconnected from what it means to be truly
                    ourselves, to feel whole and fulfilled.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Anna<br>
                    <span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,
                      0);"><br>
                      <br>
                    </span></div>
                  <div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                      255, 0);"><br>
                    </span><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,
                        0);">On 29 Aug 2015, at 06:43, Dante-Gabryell
                        Monson &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>&gt;



                        wrote:<br>
                        <br>
                      </span></font></div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div class="gmail_quote"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,
                          0);">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
                          From: "Weaver" &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:silkenweaver@gmail.com">silkenweaver@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                          Date: 29 Aug 2015 01:24<br>
                          Subject: Re: Fwd for Ted Goertzel<br>
                          To: &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be">gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be</a>&gt;<br>
                          Cc:&nbsp;<br>
                          <br type="attribution">
                        </span></font>
                      <div dir="ltr">
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);"><br>
                            </span></font>
                          <div class="gmail_quote"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                                255, 0);">On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 10:00
                                PM, goertzel&nbsp;<span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:goertzel@camden.rutgers.edu" target="_blank">goertzel@camden.rutgers.edu</a>&gt;</span>&nbsp;wrote:<br>
                              </span></font>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
                              border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color:
                              rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255,
                                  255, 255, 0);">It seems to me that
                                  both science fiction and futurist
                                  writing in general are largely male
                                  domains. There are some exceptions,
                                  such as Charlotte Perkins Gilman's
                                  Herland</span></font></blockquote>
                          </div>
                          <font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);"><br>
                            </span></font></div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_Lessing" target="_blank">Doris Lessing</a>, also
                              Nobel prize laureate in literature
                              (Canopus in Argos series))<br>
                              <br>
                            </span></font></div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);">Mary Shelly (Frankenstein)<br>
                              <br>
                              Ursula K. LeGuin (Left hand of Darkness!!!
                              - a groundbreaking work of feminist
                              science fiction and many others)<br>
                            </span></font></div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);"><br>
                              C.J. Cherryh (Hugo Award for Down Below
                              Station)<br>
                              <br>
                            </span></font></div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);">Connie Willis ( 11 Hugo awards +
                              7 Nebula awards, more than any other
                              author ever!)<br>
                              <br>
                            </span></font></div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);">Just to name a few SF giantesses
                              and futurists... :-) See also:&nbsp;&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/dec/08/top10s.science.fiction.women" target="_blank">Gwyneth Jones's top 10
                                science fiction by women writers</a><br>
                              <br>
                            </span></font></div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);">Not so male domain after all...<br>
                            </span></font></div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);"></span></font></div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);"><br>
                            </span></font></div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
                              255, 0);">Weaver<br>
                            </span></font></div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
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                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
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                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                  On 29 Aug 2015, at 06:42, Dante-Gabryell Monson &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>&gt;



                  wrote:<br>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded
                      message ----------<br>
                      From: "goertzel" &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:goertzel@camden.rutgers.edu">goertzel@camden.rutgers.edu</a>&gt;<br>
                      Date: 28 Aug 2015 23:00<br>
                      Subject: Re: Fwd for Ted Goertzel<br>
                      To: &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be">gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be</a>&gt;<br>
                      Cc: <br>
                      <br type="attribution">
                      It seems to me that both science fiction and
                      futurist writing in general are largely male
                      domains. There are some exceptions, such as
                      Charlotte Perkins Gilman's Herland.&nbsp; I don't know
                      if Ayn Rand counts as a futurist, but she
                      certainly has been influential, albeit with a very
                      sexist view of the world. Perhaps men are more
                      inclined to abstract thought not grounded so
                      directly in experience.&nbsp; In The End of the
                      Beginning we were trying to move to focus to the
                      more immediate future which is challenging.<br>
                      <br>
                      The second most influential secular book of the
                      19th Century was Looking Backward by Edward
                      Bellamy. But the most influential was Harriet
                      Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin.&nbsp; I don't know
                      if the difference between the two is suggestive of
                      the difference between male and female writers
                      generally, but it is suggestive.<br>
                      <br>
                      On 2015-08-28 13:59, Jayne Gackenbach wrote:<br>
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
                        0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                        solid;padding-left:1ex"> Thanks Ted for your
                        qualifiers which are excellent points - your<br>
                        right re our book being more about self and yes
                        women do drift to that<br>
                        and further to be fair the VR and digital
                        physics sections (changes<br>
                        and views of reality) are all authored by men,
                        but one - me -<br>
                        anyway while i appreciate the popular press
                        emphasis on gender<br>
                        switching, the reality is that it is a very
                        small percentage of the<br>
                        population - maybe leading edge - hard to say -
                        my point is more along<br>
                        the lines of Wilber's take on gender differences
                        in various<br>
                        transpersonal practices - he comments that men
                        want to stare at walls<br>
                        while women want to hold and embrace and feel -
                        this is of course a<br>
                        bit simplistic but the dominance of male views
                        in the whole idea of<br>
                        transcending consciousness as a sort of silent
                        stillness or blank or<br>
                        pure consciousness is fine but the woman's
                        engaged, active, and<br>
                        intuitive perspective takes the experient in a
                        different direction -<br>
                        how is this related to the issues at hand here -
                        perhaps in how the<br>
                        questions are asked?<br>
                        <br>
                        Jayne<br>
                        <br>
                        ----- Original Message -----<br>
                        From: "Francis Heylighen" &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:fheyligh@vub.ac.be" target="_blank">fheyligh@vub.ac.be</a>&gt;<br>
                        To: "Global Brain Discussion" &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be" target="_blank">gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be</a>&gt;<br>
                        Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 11:07:22 AM GMT
                        -07:00 US/Canada Mountain<br>
                        Subject: Fwd for Ted Goertzel<br>
                        <br>
                        [This was rejected by the mailing list, probably
                        because Ted is<br>
                        subscribed at the different address than the one
                        he sent this from.]<br>
                        <br>
                        From: Ted Goertzel &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:tedgoertzel@gmail.com" target="_blank">tedgoertzel@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                        <br>
                        "Boundaries of Self and Reality" sounds
                        psychological, which may explain<br>
                        why it interested more women.&nbsp; It is also about
                        current reality, not the<br>
                        Singularity or the Global Brain.&nbsp; So far as I
                        know, no one, male or female,<br>
                        has written about gender issues related to the
                        Singularity. Ben wrote the<br>
                        chapter on The Future of Human Nature in our
                        book, but I don't recall that<br>
                        he discussed gender differences.<br>
                        <br>
                        &nbsp; I think we might interest Humanity+ press on a
                        book on gender and the<br>
                        singularity if someone were to volunteer to
                        organize one.&nbsp; Already today,<br>
                        gender is becoming a choice rather than
                        something biologically determined,<br>
                        presumably that will be more so as technology
                        improves. Will men be able to<br>
                        get surgery enabling them to get pregnant and
                        give birth?&nbsp; Or will that<br>
                        function be taken over by incubators?&nbsp; Will we
                        be able to have both male<br>
                        and female sexual organs, as some animals and
                        plants do?&nbsp; If our life span<br>
                        is greatly extended, will we be able to have
                        generations of children? What<br>
                        would we like the Singularity to bring?<br>
                        <br>
                        On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Jayne
                        Gackenbach &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jayneg@athabascau.ca" target="_blank">jayneg@athabascau.ca</a>&gt;<br>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <br>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
                          0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                          solid;padding-left:1ex"> As a woman who is
                          editing a book for Elsevier along the same
                          lines as<br>
                          Ben's, if a bit narrower, called "Boundaries
                          of Self and Reality Online",<br>
                          we have 18 contributing chapters lined up of
                          which five are authored by<br>
                          women. Maybe women need to ask women.<br>
                          Jayne<br>
                          <br>
                          ----- Original Message -----<br>
                          From: "Ben Goertzel" &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ben@goertzel.org" target="_blank">ben@goertzel.org</a>&gt;<br>
                          To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be" target="_blank">gbrain@listserv.vub.ac.be</a><br>
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 2:03:28 AM
                          GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain<br>
                          Subject: Re: Book "The End of the Beginning"
                          finally published!<br>
                          <br>
                          On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 3:55 PM,
                          Dante-Gabryell Monson<br>
                          &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com" target="_blank">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>&gt;



                          wrote:<br>
                          &gt; after forwarding this message about the
                          book, I was asked why there are<br>
                          only<br>
                          &gt; men within the author list ?<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          Well, we made a web page for the book and sent
                          out a bunch of emails<br>
                          and social media announcements soliciting
                          authors....&nbsp; &nbsp;Adult males<br>
                          were the ones who responded by sending
                          chapters....&nbsp; &nbsp;The author list<br>
                          wasn't restricted to our chums, though many
                          who responded were in fact<br>
                          our chums...<br>
                          <br>
                          I did make an effort to get
                          geographical/cultural representation ...<br>
                          but it happened that of the African and Asian
                          transhumanists I<br>
                          solicited, the ones who responded favorably
                          and wanted to submit<br>
                          chapters, were both young males...<br>
                          <br>
                          So I think this really reduces to the question
                          of why the overall<br>
                          topic of the Singularity, transhumanism and
                          advanced tech appeals to<br>
                          men more than women....&nbsp; When I used to
                          organize transhumanist<br>
                          conferences, recruiting one or two good
                          on-topic female speakers was<br>
                          always something I had to explicitly strive
                          for... I generally found<br>
                          men more eager to push themselves forward and
                          advertise themselves in<br>
                          this way, than women...<br>
                          <br>
                          (Note, I am simply being empirical in the
                          above observations, not<br>
                          making any hypotheses about the causes....&nbsp;
                          &nbsp;But I note that when I<br>
                          was working in psychology for a while in the
                          90s, things I organized<br>
                          attracted a high proportion of females....&nbsp; So
                          this doesn't seem to be<br>
                          an artifact of my or Ted's personal styles,
                          but more of the subject<br>
                          area...)<br>
                          <br>
                          -- Ben<br>
                          <br>
                          -- Ben<br>
                          <br>
                          --<br>
                          &nbsp; &nbsp; This communication is intended for the use
                          of the recipient to whom it<br>
                          &nbsp; &nbsp; is addressed, and may contain
                          confidential, personal, and or privileged<br>
                          &nbsp; &nbsp; information. Please contact us immediately
                          if you are not the intended<br>
                          &nbsp; &nbsp; recipient of this communication, and do
                          not copy, distribute, or take<br>
                          &nbsp; &nbsp; action relying on it. Any communications
                          received in error, or<br>
                          &nbsp; &nbsp; subsequent reply, should be deleted or
                          destroyed.<br>
                          ---<br>
                          <br>
                        </blockquote>
                      </blockquote>
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