<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Hi Orsan,<br>
As Brian suggests I suspect you may be adrift about Weiner
personally but the integration of military and political agendas of
the kind you describe was very apparent while I was working and
visiting MIT in the 60s. <br>
<br>
For some background, take a look at my <a
href="http://www.veoh.com/watch/v47355561kATdtzG8">1965 film about
MIT 'How to be First' </a>which MIT tried (unsuccessfuly) to
block being transmitted in the US due to the way it points to MIT's
integration with the military/industrial complex . I recall being
impressed that some of the usual banks of IBM tape machine had tags
attached saying 'Property of the Department of the Navy'.<br>
Denis<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/08/2015 18:53, Orsan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:14867B21-F986-48C7-A0D4-5618B9E17D97@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
Probably there is a short circuit here as Franz and Brian you
may be rightly identified.. Yet how naive can a brain like
Wiener? To miss where life is leading him, and his work, paid by
state and army. Can a scientist be so precise and creative in
systemic thinking and knows so much about its relation of
developing control mechanisms, and then be so naive about where
it is going... Does she or he have the luxury of being ir- or
non-responsible?�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Wiener, Bertalanffy, Hebb, Von Neumann, Boltzmann, Bohr, even
Einstein ... This large network of East European scientists and
philosophers, interestingly most of them having reformist-Jewish
family back ground, and somehow influenced by the relativist and
energetic ideas and work of Ernst Mach- most of them linked to
or connected to -in Europe- Vienna circle and Mont Pellerin
society and -i<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,
0);">n US- Chicago where�</span>Von Misses and Von Hayek (both
are staunch followers of�<span style="background-color:
rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Carl Menger)</span> built their hubs
(later Chicago centered Austrian School of Economists - also
known as 'Mach circle') and attracted state and corporate
funders like Rockefeller, Ford, Rand. These hubs became central
to the emergence of the Big Brother: networks of state and TNCs
led cybernetics and complex systems management centers (known as
operation research units) like�Los Alamos, MIT labs, Silicon
Valley, as Google's and NSA-Prism's birth places.�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>May be in terms of Wiener's or Bertalanffy's specific
personalities I have followed incorrectly connected dots and
reached early/wrong opinions. Yet I believe that they were very
well aware of what they have been doing, and what that was
serving for. This is totally opposite to what Bogdanov have done
and how he done that, he developed much more complete, compact
and flawless theorization of complex systems and their internal,
external and interconnected dynamic formation and changes, to
steer the change bottom up. Not to steer thr steerers, from
winter palace. The most important point is what SSCB missed with
Bogdanov is caught and exploited by the West by resulting in
most sophisticated and meta-algorithmic war and oppression
machine, that is globalized capital and the transnationalised
state, resting on transnationally networked control and
informational management of organization of the people, things,
ideas, behaviors, even nerves, and genes.�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Orsan</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
On 17 aug. 2015, at 16:52, Brian K Murphy <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:BrianKMurphy@bell.net">BrianKMurphy@bell.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Have you actually <i>read</i> this book, Orsan? �I have
considered it �required reading� since I discovered it in the
late sixties. �It is a profound and trenchant warning about
the dehumanizing trajectory of technology in the 20th century,
and the inevitable enslavement of humans in the service of the
machine...
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On 16 Aug 2015, at 10:52 am, Orsan wrote:</div>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Human as a mean of production, by ex-nazi 21. cc
Malthus, Norbert Wiener, a good friend of von Hayek.
Wiener is guilty of plagrimism and assimilating work
of Alexander Bogdanov, and put it in service of the
builders of the panotpticon during the cold war:</div>
<div>s<br>
"<span style="font-family: Fd5269-Identity-H;
font-size: 8pt;">This is one of the fundamental
documents of our time, a period
characterized by the concepts of 'information' and
'communica�tions'. Norbert Wiener, a child prodigy
and a great mathematician,
coined the term 'cybernetics' to characterize a very
general science
of 'control and communication in the animal and
machine'. It
brought together concepts from engineering, the
study of the
nervous system and statistical mechanics (e.g.
entropy). From these
he developed concepts that have become pervasive
through science
(especially biology and computing a common parlance:
'in�
formation', 'message', 'feedback' and 'control'. He
wrote, 'the
thought of every age is reflected in its technique .
. . If the �seventeenth and early eighteenth
centuries are the age of clocks,
and the later eighteenth and nineteenth centuries
constitute the age
of steam engines, the present time is the age of
communication and
control.' "</span>
<div class="page" title="Page 1">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column">
<p><span style="font-size: 8.000000pt;
font-family: 'Fd5269-Identity-H'">�</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://asounder.org/resources/weiner_humanuse.pdf">http://asounder.org/resources/weiner_humanuse.pdf</a></p>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
** WSFDiscuss is an open and unmoderated forum for the
exchange of information and views on the experience,
practise, and theory of the World Social Forum at any
level (local, national, regional, and global) and on
related social and political movements and issues. �Join
in !**<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
WSFDiscuss mailing list<br>
POST to LIST : Send email to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:WorldSocialForum-Discuss@openspaceforum.net">WorldSocialForum-Discuss@openspaceforum.net</a><br>
SUBSCRIBE: Send empty email to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:worldsocialforum-discuss-subscribe@openspaceforum.net">worldsocialforum-discuss-subscribe@openspaceforum.net</a><br>
UNSUBSCRIBE: Send empty email to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:worldsocialforum-discuss-unsubscribe@openspaceforum.net">worldsocialforum-discuss-unsubscribe@openspaceforum.net</a><br>
LIST ARCHIVES: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://openspaceforum.net/pipermail/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net/">http://openspaceforum.net/pipermail/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net/</a><br>
LIST INFORMATION: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://openspaceforum.net/mailman/listinfo/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net">http://openspaceforum.net/mailman/listinfo/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net</a></div>
<br>
<div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align:
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; ">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium;
">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space; "><i><font
class="Apple-style-span" color="#232994">There
is no way to peace; peace�is the way..</font>.</i><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</span></div>
</span></span>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>** WSFDiscuss is an open and unmoderated forum for the
exchange of information and views on the experience,
practise, and theory of the World Social Forum at any level
(local, national, regional, and global) and on related
social and political movements and issues. �Join in !**</span><br>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>WSFDiscuss mailing list</span><br>
<span>POST to LIST : Send email to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:WorldSocialForum-Discuss@openspaceforum.net">WorldSocialForum-Discuss@openspaceforum.net</a></span><br>
<span>SUBSCRIBE: Send empty email to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:worldsocialforum-discuss-subscribe@openspaceforum.net">worldsocialforum-discuss-subscribe@openspaceforum.net</a></span><br>
<span>UNSUBSCRIBE: Send empty email to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:worldsocialforum-discuss-unsubscribe@openspaceforum.net">worldsocialforum-discuss-unsubscribe@openspaceforum.net</a></span><br>
<span>LIST ARCHIVES: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://openspaceforum.net/pipermail/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net/">http://openspaceforum.net/pipermail/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net/</a></span><br>
<span>LIST INFORMATION: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://openspaceforum.net/mailman/listinfo/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net">http://openspaceforum.net/mailman/listinfo/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net</a></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
P2P Foundation - Mailing list
Blog - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net">http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net</a>
Wiki - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a>
Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by making a donation. Thank you for your support.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation">https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<meta name="generator" content="Adobe GoLive">
<title>new site text</title>
<p>I have a new web-site: <a href="http://denis.postle.net">denis.postle.net</a>
- street poetry, free ebooks, writing, photos, videos, music and
therapy all in one place.</p>
</div>
<br /><br />
<hr style='border:none; color:#909090; background-color:#B0B0B0; height: 1px; width: 99%;' />
<table style='border-collapse:collapse;border:none;'>
<tr>
<td style='border:none;padding:0px 15px 0px 8px'>
<a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus">
<img border=0 src="http://static.avast.com/emails/avast-mail-stamp.png" alt="Avast logo" />
</a>
</td>
<td>
<p style='color:#3d4d5a; font-family:"Calibri","Verdana","Arial","Helvetica"; font-size:12pt;'>
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
<br><a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus">www.avast.com</a>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<br />
</body>
</html>