<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><span></span></div><div><div><br>Hi Denis, </div><div><br></div><div>This is a long quote from the intro: </div><div><br></div><div>"<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H;">G.H. Hardy, the Cambridge mathematician and author of
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Fd522239-Identity-H;">A </span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Fd11412-Identity-H;">Mathematician's Apology, </span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H;">reflecting on the value of
mathematics, insisted that it is a 'harmless and innocent
occupation'. 'Real mathematics has no effects on war', he
explained in a book for the general public in 1940. 'No one
has yet discovered any warlike purpose to be served by the
theory of numbers or relativity . . . A real mathematician has
his conscience dear.' Yet, in fact, at that time physicists were
already actively engaged in experiments converting matter
into energy (a possibility implied by the Theory of Relativity)
in anticipation of building an atomic bomb. Of the younger
generation which he taught, Hardy wrote, 'I have helped to
train other mathematicians, but mathematicians of the same
kind as myself, and their work has been, so far at any rate as </span><span style="font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; font-size: 10pt;">have helped them to it, as useless as my own . . . '</span></div><div class="page" title="Page 11"><div class="layoutArea"><div class="column"><p><span style="font-size: 10.000000pt; font-family: 'Fd51058-Identity-H'">Norbert Wiener took issue with his mentor. He thought
Hardy's attitude to be 'pure escapism', noted that the ideas of
number theory are applied in electrical engineering, and that
'no matter how innocent he may be in his inner soul and in
his motivation, the effective mathematician is likely to be a
powerful factor in changing the face of society. Thus he is
really as dangerous as a potential armourer of the new
scientific war of the future.' The neat separation of pure and
applied mathematics is only a mathematician's self-serving</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 1pt;">illu</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H;">sion.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10.000000pt; font-family: 'Fd51058-Identity-H'">Wiener came to address the alternative to innocence -</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 1pt;">nam</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H;">ely, taking responsibility. After he himself had during
World War II worked on a mathematical theory of prediction
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 1pt;">int</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H;">ended to enhance the effectiveness of anti-aircraft fire, and
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 1pt;">de</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H;">veloped a powerful statistical theory of communication
which would put modern communication engineering on a
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 2pt;">rig</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 1pt;">orous </span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H;">mathematical footing, any pretence of harmlessness
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 2pt;">w</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 1pt;">as </span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H;">out of the question for him. From the time of the </span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 1pt;">end of
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 2pt;">the </span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 1pt;">war </span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H;">until his death in 1964, Wiener </span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; vertical-align: 1pt;">applied his </span><span style="font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; font-size: 10pt;">penetrating and innovative mind to identifying and elaborating on a relation of high technology to people which is <u>benign
or, in his words, to the human - rather than the inhuman -
use of human beings. </u>In doing so during the years when the
cold war was raging in the United States, he found an
audience among the generally educated public. However,
most of his scientific colleagues - offended or embarrassed by
Wiener's views and especially by his open refusal to engage in
any more work related to the military - saw him as an
eccentric at best and certainly not to be taken seriously except
in his undeniably brilliant, strictly mathematical, researches.
Albert Einstein, who regarded Wiener's attitude towards the
military as exemplary, was in those days similarly made light
of as unschooled in political matters."</span></p><p><span style="font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; font-size: 10pt;">Weather in competition to Nazis, or Communists, these people served to complex and systemic development of what is about to get almost realized a SkyNet of cybernetic control as in Total Recall or Big brother as in </span><span style="font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; font-size: 10pt;">1984, or Panopticon in Bentham's imagination. As founders of such mathematic based holistic vision of how complex systems interact and rise, it would be very fun if they missed to see what they are being part of, and not opt out, nor resist. </span></p><p><font face="Fd51058-Identity-H"><span style="font-size: 13px;">Recently in another list engaged in a discussion with some friends, about supposedly one of most radical strands of the left known as autonomia traditionally giving their En language distribution to the MIT press; famous publishing house that publishes supposedly mostly on left-radical-autonomist-anarchist revolutionary resistance strategy targeting this emerging dark-net is syndicated to MIT territory. Told them that this is like giving the most advanced armory to enemy for protection and spread of revolution. I like to look into deeper for Wiener's role -with others like McLuhan, and some others from psychology-physiology fields and the advancing of 'military deception science' </span></font></p><p><font face="Fd51058-Identity-H"><span style="font-size: 13px;">Best, Orsan</span></font></p><p><span style="font-family: Fd51058-Identity-H; font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></p>
<div class="page" title="Page 12">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column">
<p><br></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><br></div><div><br><br></div><div><br><div>Sent from my iPad</div>On 18 aug. 2015, at 07:01, Denis Postle <<a href="mailto:denis.postle@gmail.com">denis.postle@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252" http-equiv="Content-Type">
Hi Orsan,<br>
As Brian suggests I suspect you may be adrift about Weiner
personally but the integration of military and political agendas of
the kind you describe was very apparent while I was working and
visiting MIT in the 60s. <br>
<br>
For some background, take a look at my <a href="http://www.veoh.com/watch/v47355561kATdtzG8">1965 film about
MIT 'How to be First' </a>which MIT tried (unsuccessfuly) to
block being transmitted in the US due to the way it points to MIT's
integration with the military/industrial complex . I recall being
impressed that some of the usual banks of IBM tape machine had tags
attached saying 'Property of the Department of the Navy'.<br>
Denis<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/08/2015 18:53, Orsan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:14867B21-F986-48C7-A0D4-5618B9E17D97@gmail.com" type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
Probably there is a short circuit here as Franz and Brian you
may be rightly identified.. Yet how naive can a brain like
Wiener? To miss where life is leading him, and his work, paid by
state and army. Can a scientist be so precise and creative in
systemic thinking and knows so much about its relation of
developing control mechanisms, and then be so naive about where
it is going... Does she or he have the luxury of being ir- or
non-responsible? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Wiener, Bertalanffy, Hebb, Von Neumann, Boltzmann, Bohr, even
Einstein ... This large network of East European scientists and
philosophers, interestingly most of them having reformist-Jewish
family back ground, and somehow influenced by the relativist and
energetic ideas and work of Ernst Mach- most of them linked to
or connected to -in Europe- Vienna circle and Mont Pellerin
society and -i<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,
0);">n US- Chicago where </span>Von Misses and Von Hayek (both
are staunch followers of <span style="background-color:
rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Carl Menger)</span> built their hubs
(later Chicago centered Austrian School of Economists - also
known as 'Mach circle') and attracted state and corporate
funders like Rockefeller, Ford, Rand. These hubs became central
to the emergence of the Big Brother: networks of state and TNCs
led cybernetics and complex systems management centers (known as
operation research units) like Los Alamos, MIT labs, Silicon
Valley, as Google's and NSA-Prism's birth places. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>May be in terms of Wiener's or Bertalanffy's specific
personalities I have followed incorrectly connected dots and
reached early/wrong opinions. Yet I believe that they were very
well aware of what they have been doing, and what that was
serving for. This is totally opposite to what Bogdanov have done
and how he done that, he developed much more complete, compact
and flawless theorization of complex systems and their internal,
external and interconnected dynamic formation and changes, to
steer the change bottom up. Not to steer thr steerers, from
winter palace. The most important point is what SSCB missed with
Bogdanov is caught and exploited by the West by resulting in
most sophisticated and meta-algorithmic war and oppression
machine, that is globalized capital and the transnationalised
state, resting on transnationally networked control and
informational management of organization of the people, things,
ideas, behaviors, even nerves, and genes. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Orsan</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
On 17 aug. 2015, at 16:52, Brian K Murphy <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:BrianKMurphy@bell.net">BrianKMurphy@bell.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Have you actually <i>read</i> this book, Orsan? I have
considered it ‘required reading’ since I discovered it in the
late sixties. It is a profound and trenchant warning about
the dehumanizing trajectory of technology in the 20th century,
and the inevitable enslavement of humans in the service of the
machine...
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On 16 Aug 2015, at 10:52 am, Orsan wrote:</div>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Human as a mean of production, by ex-nazi 21. cc
Malthus, Norbert Wiener, a good friend of von Hayek.
Wiener is guilty of plagrimism and assimilating work
of Alexander Bogdanov, and put it in service of the
builders of the panotpticon during the cold war:</div>
<div>s<br>
"<span style="font-family: Fd5269-Identity-H;
font-size: 8pt;">This is one of the fundamental
documents of our time, a period
characterized by the concepts of 'information' and
'communications'. Norbert Wiener, a child prodigy
and a great mathematician,
coined the term 'cybernetics' to characterize a very
general science
of 'control and communication in the animal and
machine'. It
brought together concepts from engineering, the
study of the
nervous system and statistical mechanics (e.g.
entropy). From these
he developed concepts that have become pervasive
through science
(especially biology and computing a common parlance:
'in
formation', 'message', 'feedback' and 'control'. He
wrote, 'the
thought of every age is reflected in its technique .
. . If the seventeenth and early eighteenth
centuries are the age of clocks,
and the later eighteenth and nineteenth centuries
constitute the age
of steam engines, the present time is the age of
communication and
control.' "</span>
<div class="page" title="Page 1">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column">
<p><span style="font-size: 8.000000pt;
font-family: 'Fd5269-Identity-H'"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://asounder.org/resources/weiner_humanuse.pdf">http://asounder.org/resources/weiner_humanuse.pdf</a></p>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
** WSFDiscuss is an open and unmoderated forum for the
exchange of information and views on the experience,
practise, and theory of the World Social Forum at any
level (local, national, regional, and global) and on
related social and political movements and issues. Join
in !**<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
WSFDiscuss mailing list<br>
POST to LIST : Send email to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:WorldSocialForum-Discuss@openspaceforum.net">WorldSocialForum-Discuss@openspaceforum.net</a><br>
SUBSCRIBE: Send empty email to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:worldsocialforum-discuss-subscribe@openspaceforum.net">worldsocialforum-discuss-subscribe@openspaceforum.net</a><br>
UNSUBSCRIBE: Send empty email to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:worldsocialforum-discuss-unsubscribe@openspaceforum.net">worldsocialforum-discuss-unsubscribe@openspaceforum.net</a><br>
LIST ARCHIVES: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://openspaceforum.net/pipermail/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net/">http://openspaceforum.net/pipermail/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net/</a><br>
LIST INFORMATION: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://openspaceforum.net/mailman/listinfo/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net">http://openspaceforum.net/mailman/listinfo/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net</a></div>
<br>
<div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align:
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; ">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; font-family: 'Times New Roman';
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium;
">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space; "><i><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#232994">There
is no way to peace; peace is the way..</font>.</i><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</span></div>
</span></span>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>** WSFDiscuss is an open and unmoderated forum for the
exchange of information and views on the experience,
practise, and theory of the World Social Forum at any level
(local, national, regional, and global) and on related
social and political movements and issues. Join in !**</span><br>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>WSFDiscuss mailing list</span><br>
<span>POST to LIST : Send email to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:WorldSocialForum-Discuss@openspaceforum.net">WorldSocialForum-Discuss@openspaceforum.net</a></span><br>
<span>SUBSCRIBE: Send empty email to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:worldsocialforum-discuss-subscribe@openspaceforum.net">worldsocialforum-discuss-subscribe@openspaceforum.net</a></span><br>
<span>UNSUBSCRIBE: Send empty email to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:worldsocialforum-discuss-unsubscribe@openspaceforum.net">worldsocialforum-discuss-unsubscribe@openspaceforum.net</a></span><br>
<span>LIST ARCHIVES: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://openspaceforum.net/pipermail/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net/">http://openspaceforum.net/pipermail/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net/</a></span><br>
<span>LIST INFORMATION: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://openspaceforum.net/mailman/listinfo/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net">http://openspaceforum.net/mailman/listinfo/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net</a></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
P2P Foundation - Mailing list
Blog - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net">http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net</a>
Wiki - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a>
Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by making a donation. Thank you for your support.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation">https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<meta name="generator" content="Adobe GoLive">
<title>new site text</title>
<p>I have a new web-site: <a href="http://denis.postle.net">denis.postle.net</a>
- street poetry, free ebooks, writing, photos, videos, music and
therapy all in one place.</p>
</div>
<br><br>
<hr style="border:none; color:#909090; background-color:#B0B0B0; height: 1px; width: 99%;">
<table style="border-collapse:collapse;border:none;">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="border:none;padding:0px 15px 0px 8px">
<a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus">
<img border="0" src="http://static.avast.com/emails/avast-mail-stamp.png" alt="Avast logo">
</a>
</td>
<td>
<p style="color:#3d4d5a; font-family:"Calibri","Verdana","Arial","Helvetica"; font-size:12pt;">
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
<br><a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus">www.avast.com</a>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<br>
<br><br>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>P2P Foundation - Mailing list</span><br><span></span><br><span>Blog - <a href="http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net">http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net</a></span><br><span>Wiki - <a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by making a donation. Thank you for your support.</span><br><span><a href="https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation">https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation</a></span><br><span></span><br><span><a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>