<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">peter waterman</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:peterwaterman1936@gmail.com">peterwaterman1936@gmail.com</a>></span><br>Date: Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:37 PM<br>Subject: [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: [Debate-List] (Fwd) Indigenous + eco-socialist: towards harmony (Hugo Blanco interview)<br>To: WSFDiscuss List <<a href="mailto:WorldSocialForum-Discuss@openspaceforum.net">WorldSocialForum-Discuss@openspaceforum.net</a>>, p2p-foundation <<a href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</a>>, "<<a href="mailto:networkedlabour@lists.contrast.org">networkedlabour@lists.contrast.org</a>>" <<a href="mailto:networkedlabour@lists.contrast.org">networkedlabour@lists.contrast.org</a>>, gina vargas <<a href="mailto:ginvargas@gmail.com">ginvargas@gmail.com</a>>, Raphael Hoetmer <<a href="mailto:Raphael@democraciaglobal.org">Raphael@democraciaglobal.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:obertell@netscape.net">obertell@netscape.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:obertell@netscape.net">obertell@netscape.net</a>>, Ariel Salleh <<a href="mailto:arielsalleh7@gmail.com">arielsalleh7@gmail.com</a>><br><br><br><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:small"><br clear="all"></div><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><ol><li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://snuproject.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/1987-e-reader-ed-by-peter-waterman-on-labour-social-movements-and-internationalism-the-old-internationalism-and-the-new/" target="_blank"></font></font></span></span></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></font></font></span><font color="#ff0000"><font size="1"><span style="background-color:rgb(246,178,107)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font color="#ff0000">2014. From Coldwar Communism to the Global Justice <span>Movement: Itinerary of a Long-Distance Internationalis<span>t. <span style="color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="color:rgb(255,0,0)"> </a><font size="1"><font color="#0000ff"><a href="http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/from_coldwar_communism_to_the_global_emancipatory_movement/" target="_blank">http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/from_coldwar_communism _to_the_global_emancipatory_movement/</a><font color="#0000ff"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#ff0000"> <span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">(Free). </span><br></font></span></span></span></font></font></font></li><li><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="color:rgb(255,0,0)"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#ff0000"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font color="#ff0000">2014. </font>Interface Journal Special (Co-Editor), December 2014.</span> <a href="http://www.interfacejournal.net/current/" target="_blank">'Social Movement Internationalisms'. (Free).</a></font></span></span></span></font></span></font></font></span><b><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="color:rgb(255,0,0)"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#ff0000"><a href="http://www.interfacejournal.net/current/" target="_blank"><br></a></font></span></span></span></font></span></font></font></span></b></li><li><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="color:rgb(255,0,0)"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#ff0000">2014. <font color="#000000">'The Networked Internationalism of Labour's Others', in Jai Sen (ed), Peter Waterman (co-ed), <a href="http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/the_movements_of_movements/" target="_blank"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">The Movement of Movements: </a></font></font></span></span></span></font></span></font></font></span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="color:rgb(255,0,0)"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#000000"><a href="http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/the_movements_of_movements/" target="_blank"></font></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">Struggles for Other Worlds <font color="#000000">(Part I).</a><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"> (10 Euros).</span></font></font></span></span></span></font></span></font></font></span><b><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="color:rgb(255,0,0)"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#000000"><br></font></font></span></span></span></font></span></font></font></span></b></li><li><div style="text-align:left"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><span><span><font color="#ff0000">2012. </font>EBook:</span> <a href="http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/recovering_internationalism/" target="_blank">Recovering
Internationalism</a>. <span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"> </span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">[A compilation of papers from the new millenium. Now free in two download formats]</span></font></span><b><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><span><span></span></span></font></span></b></div></li><li><div style="text-align:left"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><span><span><font color="#ff0000">2013. </font>EBook (co-editor), February 2013: World Social Forum: Critical Explorations <a href="http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/" target="_blank">http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/</a></span></span><span><span></span></span><span></span></font></span></div></li><li><div style="text-align:left"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><span><font color="#ff0000">2012. </font>Interface
Journal<span> Special (co-editor), November 2012:</span></span><span> </span><span style="font-weight:normal"></span></font></span><b><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><span style="font-weight:normal"><a href="http://www.interfacejournal.net/current/" target="_blank">For the Global Emancipation of Labour </a></span><span lang="NL"></span></font></span></b></div></li><li><div style="text-align:left"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#ff0000" size="1"><a href="http://interfacejournal.nuim.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Interface-1-2-pp255-262-Waterman.pdf" target="_blank"></font></font><font color="#000000"><font color="#ff0000">2005-?</a></font></span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="1"><span lang="NL"><font color="#ff0000"> Ongoing. </font>Blog:</span><span lang="NL"> <a href="http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman." target="_blank">http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman.</a></span></font></span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span><span></span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#ff0000" size="1"><a href="http://interfacejournal.nuim.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Interface-1-2-pp255-262-Waterman.pdf" target="_blank"></font></span></font></span></font><font color="#000000"><font color="#ff0000">???. Needed: a Global Labour Charter Movement<span style="color:rgb(255,0,0)"><font color="#000000"> <span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">(2005-Now!)</a></font></span></div></li><li><div style="text-align:left"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#ff0000" size="1"><font color="#000000"><a href="http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/" target="_blank"></font><font color="red"><b>MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.into-ebooks.com" claiming to be</b></font> <font color="#ff0000">2011. Under, Against, Beyond: Labour and Social Movements Confront a Globalised, Informatised Capitalism </a>(2011) <span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">(c. 1,000 pages of Working Papers, free, from the <a href="tel:1980" value="+661980" target="_blank">1980</a>'s-90's).</span></font></font></span></div></li></ol></div><div><table cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr></tr></tbody></table><font size="1">
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<br><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Patrick Bond</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pbond@mail.ngo.za" target="_blank">pbond@mail.ngo.za</a>></span><br>Date: Thu, May 21, 2015 at 9:35 AM<br>Subject: [Debate-List] (Fwd) Indigenous + eco-socialist: towards harmony (Hugo Blanco interview)<br>To: "<a href="mailto:cjn-south-africa@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">cjn-south-africa@googlegroups.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:cjn-south-africa@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">cjn-south-africa@googlegroups.com</a>>, DEBATE <<a href="mailto:debate-list@fahamu.org" target="_blank">debate-list@fahamu.org</a>><br><br><br>
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<i>Counterpunch</i><br>
May 19, 2015
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<div>The Survival of the Species</div>
<h1>From Indigenous Struggle to Ecosocialism</h1>
<div>by QUINCY SAUL and HUGO BLANCO</div>
<div>
<p>The epic life of Hugo Blanco requires an epic introduction.
None could do better than Eduardo Galeano:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>“Hugo Blanco was born for the first time in Cuzco, <a href="tel:1934" value="+661934" target="_blank">1934</a>. He
arrived in Peru, a country divided in two. He was born in
the middle. He was white, but he was raised in Huanoquite, a
town where his friends in games and adventures all spoke
Quechua. He went to school in Cuzco, where the Indios
couldn’t walk on the sidewalks, which were reserved for
decent people. Hugo was born for the second time when he was
ten years old. He received news from his town, and learned
that Bartolome Paz had branded an indigenous peasant with a
hot iron. This owner of land and people had branded his
initials with fire on the buttocks of a peasant, named
Francisco Zamata, because he hadn’t tended well to the cows
on his property. This wasn’t so unusual in fact, but that
brand marked Hugo forever. And as the years passed, this man
who wasn’t Indio started becoming one; he organized
campesino unions and paid with beatings, tortures, prisons,
harassment and exile his chosen disgrace. . . Hugo Blanco
has walked his country backwards and forwards, from the
snowy mountains to the dry coasts, passing through the humid
jungles where the natives are hunted like beasts. And
wherever he has gone, has has helped the fallen to get up,
the silenced to speak. The authorities accused him of being
a terrorist. They were right. He sowed terror among the
owners of lands and peoples. He slept under the stars and in
cells occupied by rats. He went on fourteen hunger strikes.
. . More than once, the prosecutors demanded the death
penalty, and more than once the news was published that Hugo
had died. And when a drill opened up his skull, because a
vein had burst, Hugo awoke in panic that the surgeons may
have changed his ideas. But no. He continued to be, with his
skull sewed up, the same Hugo as always. His friends are
sure that no transplant of ideas would work. But we did fear
that that Hugo would wake up sane. But here he is – he
continues to be that beautiful madman who decided to be
Indio, even though he wasn’t, and wound up being more Indio
than anyone.”</p>
<p>— Eduardo Galeano, excerpts from passages quoted in Lucha
Indiegna #105, May 2015</p>
</blockquote>
<p><b>Quincy Saul: </b><i>We read in <a href="http://www.luchaindigena.com/" target="_blank">Lucha
Indigena</a> and other publications that in Peru today
roughly 20% of the national territory has been ceded to
foreign mining interests. We read also about the <a href="http://www.somoselmedio.org/blog/guardianes-de-las-lagunas-resistencia-cajamarquina-en-defensa-del-agua" target="_blank">Guardians
of Lakes</a>, and the people resisting mining in <a href="http://upsidedownworld.org/main/peru-archives-76/4823-perus-conga-mine-conflict-cajamarca-wont-capitulate" target="_blank">Cajamarca</a>.
What are the lessons for the world that are emerging from
these struggles?</i></p>
<p><b>Hugo Blanco:</b> We all learn from the struggles
in Peru and in the rest of the world. From the 4th to the 8th
of August of 2014, we were gathered in Cajamarca weaving
international alliances. The dominant system’s means of
communication hide our struggles or lie about them. They are
spokespeople for the enemies of humanity and nature. So one of
our great tasks is to broadcast what is really happening.</p>
<p>The diffusion of our news awakens national and international
solidarity. This international solidarity is manifested in
actions of all kinds: Declarations, conferences, publications,
public gatherings, and marches, all of which seek to stop the
attack on the defenders of Water and Life.</p>
<p>“Lucha Indigena” has economic limitations – we could do much
more if we had more resources, if we had a local in the
capital of the country, where in addition to selling the
periodical we could sell pamphlets, shirts, stickers, as we
have done at times when we have received some money. We would
screen some of the many movies about the struggle, host
conferences, and organize debates. We would have more
possibilities of weaving networks.</p>
<p>We would show reality, the truth of the facts: That so-called
“progress” and “development” are predatory to nature; they use
up all the water necessary for small-scale agriculture, (which
feeds people good food) and they are leading us towards the
extinction of the species. Now, there is a small network of
comrades at an international level which has understood this
and is beginning a collaboration with “Lucha Indigena.” To
communicate with them, write to the Colombian comrade Manuel
Rozental, or to the Uruguayan comrade Raul Zibechi.<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftn1" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftnref1" target="_blank">[1]</a></p>
<p><b>QS: </b><i>You have said that you used to
think the revolution would come in the distant future, but
when you learned about climate change you realized that <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoblgIAFl6g+-" target="_blank">revolution
will have to come within your lifetime.</a> The climate
scientists agree, and give us a short timeline (a <a href="http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/30121-welcome-to-the-tipping-point" target="_blank">2015
carbon emissions peak</a>). Is this a pipe dream? You have
said that this revolution is possible, but not certain.<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftn2" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftnref2" target="_blank">[2]</a> How can we save the world in so
short a time? How can we do it while also staying true to
what the Zapatistas call “the speed of democracy”?</i></p>
<p><b>HB:</b> Before I thought that if my generation
didn’t make the revolution, then future generations would make
it. What I now see is that there will not be future <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0873482662/counterpunchmaga" target="_blank"><img alt="landordeath" height="274" width="175"></a>generations,
if transnational corporations continue to govern the world.
The only thing that interests them is profit, and it is with
this single objective that they direct all technical and
scientific advances, attacking nature more and more. If this
continues, the human species may not last another 100 years.</p>
<p>I believe that the capitalist system today, in its neoliberal
stage, has entered into its final crisis, an economic, ethical
and political crisis. Some call it a “crisis of civilization.”
This crisis can conclude in two ways: One in which a unified
humanity kicks the transnational corporations out of the
governments of the world, and directs its own destiny. The
other way is if humanity cannot do this, and the government of
transnationals exterminates humanity, including of course all
the components of the governing transnationals. This is why I
said that before I fought for social equality, and now I fight
for something more and more important – the survival of my
species.</p>
<p><b>QS: </b><i>How can the revolutionary
ideologies of the industrial working class
(Marxist-Leninism, etc) work together with the revolutionary
cosmovisions of indigenous peoples? One sees revolution as
progress, the other as return. (Not return to the past,
which as you have said is impossible, but “a return to the
principles of communal society on the continent before the
invasion.”<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftn3" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftnref3" target="_blank">[3]</a>) One seeks mastery over nature,
the other seeks harmony within it. In your life you have
embodied and encompassed both, so you are in a rare and
unique position to answer this question. It is an
ideological-spiritual question, but also a
practical-strategic one — must indigenous peoples join the
industrial working class in a factory system? Or must
factory workers join indigenous nations in subsistence
living?</i></p>
<p><b>HB:</b> Now that we have begun to talk of
Marxism, let’s talk about him. I respect Marx a great deal, he
has been one of my fundamental teachers. It is he who best
analyzed capital, and has taught us the method of dialectical
materialism. When they asked him if he was a Marxist, he said
that Marxism didn’t exist. What happened is that since we came
from Christianity, we were left without a Bible, and there are
those who are looking for a substitute. I admire and respect
Marx and his teachings, but I don’t take his writings as a
Bible.</p>
<p>Marx was a human being, capable of being wrong, such as when
he thought that since socialism would come after the
development of capitalism, the revolution would be made in
England or in another developed country. Fortunately Lenin was
not dogmatic, and he understood that the chain could be broken
in its weakest link, and was one of the drivers of the Russian
revolution. Departing from this same premise, Marx said that
he thought that the conquest of India by the English was
positive – I am not in agreement with this.</p>
<p>But we don’t forget that Marx talked about “primitive
communism.” We also don’t forget the admiration and respect
that Engels had for the primitive “gens.”</p>
<p>José Carlos Mariategui got to know the indigenous community,
but this didn’t fit the Stalinist “official line” of the
“revolution in stages:” “First the democratic-bourgeois
revolution against feudalism supporting the ‘progressive
bourgeoisie’, and later the socialist revolution.” To this he
said “the revolution in Peru will be socialist or it will not
be.” We don’t forget that in his most famous work “Seven
Essays,” two of them are dedicated to the indigenous, “El
Problema del indio,” and “El problema de la tierra.”</p>
<p>In terms of Lenin, he is another of my great teachers.
However, I believe the necessity of a party is relative. On
the point of “the dictatorship of the proletariat”, I am not
for any dictatorship. We have seen in Russia how it turned
into the dictatorship of a bloody bureaucracy that massacred
the proletariat and buried the revolution.</p>
<p>Marx said that it is better to see reality than to read 100
books. As I respect him, I follow his advice – and what do I
see? That because of the treason of Social Democracy and
Stalinism, vigorous workers’ revolutions were destroyed, as in
Austria and Spain. The bourgeoisie read Marx too, and it knew
that the proletariat would be its gravedigger. So it fought
back with outsourcing, (so that the worker wouldn’t be able to
claim an increase in wages from the factory owner, because the
owner didn’t contract the worker) with the hierarchal
organization that divides workers, and with automation, etc.
Meanwhile, capital is ferociously attacking nature, and those
who are most connected to nature are the indigenous peoples,
who use their collective organization to struggle in its
defense.</p>
<p>Trotskysm? Trotsky said that Trotskyism doesn’t exist. The
organization of the Fourth International sought to revindicate
the revolutionary tradition against the distortions of
Marxism, which the bureaucracy made for its own interests.
They predicted that if the workers in the cities and the
country didn’t recover power in the Soviet Union, it would
fall into the hands of capitalism. Unfortunately, this
happened – the principal leaders of the Communist Party of the
Soviet Union became the most important neoliberal capitalists.
The objective of “Trotskyism” was to combat the soviet
bureaucracy which governed the communist parties of the world.
As those bureaucracies have disappeared, why be a Trotskist? I
have to join with those who are fighting against the
neoliberal system, fundamentally in defense of nature.
Naturally everything I have learned from what is called
“Trotskyism” I continue to use, such as confrontations against
bureaucracies. But it would be stupid to tell the youth: “In
the last century there as a debate in the Left.” I have to
tell them about the attack on the environment and how to
struggle in its defense. Trotskyist comrades in France and
Spain have joined with non-Trotskyist revolutionaries in the
same organization, which seems correct to me.</p>
<p><b>QS: </b><i>In </i><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0873482662/counterpunchmaga" target="_blank">“Land
or Death: The Peasant Struggle in Peru”</a> you talk about
your “syndicalist deviation” and failure to build the Party.<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftn4" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftnref4" target="_blank">[4]</a> In more recent writings you
express opposition to all forms of vanguardism. This is a
two part question: Tell us about how your ideas about
organization have changed. And what is the most appropriate
form for revolutionary organization in the 21st century? You
have said that “we must braid together internationally the
defense of Mother Earth.”<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftn5" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftnref5" target="_blank">[5]</a> How?</i></p>
<p><b>HB:</b> The indigenous campesino struggle in
the valleys of La Convencion and Lares was successful. Our
slogan was “Land or Death!” We got the land. It was the first
land reform in Peru, from 1961-1963 (the Velasco land reform
was in <a href="tel:1971" value="+661971" target="_blank">1971</a>). It was the most complete. We didn’t leave a
single handful of earth to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latifundium" target="_blank">latifundistas</a>,
and didn’t pay them a cent. We struggled against the
latifundistas, against the government, against the police and
against the courts. It cost us lives and jail, but we were
victorious.</p>
<p>At that time I thought it was a deficiency to not have built
the party. But I don’t think so anymore. As the Zapatistas
say, everyone will see in their time and place how to do
things. If we believe we should build a party, we should do
it, and if we don’t think it’s convenient, we shouldn’t. But
if we construct a party, it must be the base of the party
which commands, not the leaders. I repeat another Zapatista
concept: Command by obeying <i>(Mandar obedeciendo</i>). I
believe that in Peru today a party is not necessary. In other
places it could be necessary.</p>
<p>How can we weave the defense of Mother Earth together
internationally? From August 4-8th, we were occupied with this
question in Cajamarca. There was an international gathering in
defense of water. There were people form Colombia, Argentina,
Chile, Mexico, France, Basque Country, Cataluna, and Holland.
After the debates we constituted an international network, and
thousands of us walked to visit the lakes (at an altitude of
4000 meters) which the Conga mining project (that has the
government, parliament, courts, police and the big media as
its servants) is trying to destroy. There is also another
smaller and more condensed international network, with many
points of view in common, which I am part of.</p>
<p><b>QS: </b><i>You have written extensively about
the Zapatistas. Other former guerrilas like <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/217926377/Gutierrez-Aguilar-Raquel-2006-A-Desordenar-Por-una-historia-abierta-de-la-lucha-social-Mexico-Textos-Rebeldes#scribd" target="_blank">Raquel
Guit</a>é<a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/217926377/Gutierrez-Aguilar-Raquel-2006-A-Desordenar-Por-una-historia-abierta-de-la-lucha-social-Mexico-Textos-Rebeldes#scribd" target="_blank">rrez
Aguilar</a> have written about how the Zapatista uprising
in <a href="tel:1994" value="+661994" target="_blank">1994</a> was a personal and political turning point for them.
Was it the same for you? What’s the relationship between
Zapatismo and ecosocialism? Can we say that Zapatistas are
ecosocialists, even if not all ecosocialists are Zapatistas?</i></p>
<p><b>HB:</b> The Zapatistas are the best socialists
I have met, with their seven principles of commanding by
obeying. In the Zapatista territories, they elect not
individual authorities, but groups, who are replaced after a
short time. No authority at any level ever gains a cent. They
are ecologists; they eat the food they grow themselves, and
they don’t use agrochemicals or GMOs. They are ecosocialists
even though they don’t use the term.</p>
<p><b>QS: </b><i>People all over the world see South
America has a region of hope for revolutionary change. Is
there promise in Venezuela’s adoption of ecosocialism as
official government policy? You have written about how the
indigenous peoples of South America are often fighting
against ‘Socialism of the 21st century’.<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftn6" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftnref6" target="_blank">[6]</a> But we also can’t deny that
indigenous peoples have more rights and recognition under
these current regimes than ever before. </i></p>
<p><b>HB:</b> We give energetic support to the
“progressive” governments of South America in their rising up
against North American imperialism and against internal
reaction. But we fight them when they attack indigenous
peoples, when they capitulate to the transnationals, or when
they attack democracy. I cite some examples of “Socialism of
the 21st Century”:</p>
<p>VENEZUELA: The indigenous Yukpa people have been trampled
with the invasion of their lands by capitalist cattle
ranchers. They have complained repeatedly throughout the era
of Chavez, and were never given attention. An assassin hired
by the ranchers killed their implacable leader Sabino Romero
three days before the death of Chavez. The Bolivarian army
protected the assassin’s flight. The indigenous Wayu people
near the border with Colombia are also treated as hostile by
the army. On paper it may call itself ecosocialist. I pay
attention to what they do, not what they say.</p>
<p>BOLIVIA: The indigenous peoples have had a long struggle
against Morales, who tried to open a highway through Tipnis,
trampling indigenous populations and natural reserves. The
government used police aggression in repressing the protests.
Other popular sectors supported their struggle, until the
government had to retreat. They have put forward a mining law
which favors corporations without consulting the mostly
indigenous farmers.</p>
<p>ECUADOR: . In the Ecuadorian constitution the rights of
Mother Earth are considered, but in practice they promote
their depredation. Correa is trying to impose mining in
Cabecera de Cuenca, like the Conga project in Quimsacocha
(Tres Lagunas). The indigenous people took me to the lakes,
where we made offerings. Ecuador is also trying to exploit the
oil in the natural reserve and indigenous territory of Yasuni,
against the will of the majority of the country.</p>
<p>Of the other countries we’ll mention only few things:</p>
<p>BRAZIL: Even though it has a constitutional mandate, the
government refuses to give titles of land possession to
indigenous peoples, favoring the usurpation of their
territories by agribusiness, as it destroys the Amazon
rainforest.</p>
<p>URUGUAY: Has approved a predatory mining law.</p>
<p>ARGENTINA: Is promoting Yankee fracking against the
persistent resistance of the Mapuche people.</p>
<p>In this revolutionary intransigence of not reconciling with
capitulation, and being against opportunism, one could say
that I continue to be a “Marxist-Leninist-Trotskist,” even
though I don’t identify myself that way anymore.</p>
<p><b>QS: </b><i>You seem to be ambivalent about the
term “ecosocialism”. You have written that “in South America
we cannot use the term ‘eco-socialist’,”<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftn7" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftnref7" target="_blank">[7]</a> but also you have written many
things in favor of ecosocialism. In <a href="http://ecosocialisthorizons.com/2009/02/the-birth-of-the-ecosocialist-manifesto/" target="_blank">2009
in Belem</a>, you began to call yourself an ecosocialist.
Tell us how you came to this, how it emerged from your
earlier experience and political philosophies, and how do
you see it developing locally and internationally in the
century to come?</i></p>
<p><b>HB:</b> Of course I am an ecosocialist, as are
the indigenous peoples, even though they don’t use the term. I
believe along with indigenous peoples that it is the
collective which rules, not the individual. The indigenous
peoples and I defend Mother Nature, water, and forests, so we
are ecologists.</p>
<p>What I have said is that the word “socialist” has been
prostituted. By Michelle Bachelet, who used in her first
government a Pinochet “anti-terrorist” law against the Mapuche
people, and by the governments of so-called “21st Century
Socialism” in the anti-indigenous cases mentioned above. And
in the so-called “First World” the term “socialist” has been
used by Tony Blair, invader of Iraq, by José Zapatero in
Spain, to implant neoliberalism, and now the neoliberal
government of France as well calls itself “socialist.”</p>
<p>I don’t have any ambivalence: I consider myself an
ecosocialist, and I repeat, I believe that the indigenous
peoples of the world are struggling and dying for their
ecosocialist conviction, even though they don’t use the term.<b> </b></p>
<p><b>QS: </b><i>Ecosocialism is a relatively new
revolutionary ideology and worldview, even as it draws on
ancient roots. Having participated in and witnessed almost a
century of the development of other revolutionary
ideologies, how would you advise ecosocialists to think,
work and organize themselves? What are some pitfalls to
avoid, obstacles to overcome, horizons to aim for, visions
to dream of?</i></p>
<p><b>HB:</b> Earlier I indicated that I don’t believe
in “the correct line.” I don’t consider myself “the vanguard”,
and I don’t even believe in it. I am about 80 years old, and
when I was young I enjoyed learning from the elders. Now that
I am an elder I enjoy learning from the young and from
children. This is not an ingenuous turn of phrase, it is the
truth. We elders have a lot in our memory, and we consciously
or unconsciously return to it to find solutions to current
problems. The young person confronts the problems of their
times spontaneously. It’s very possible that they’ll be right
and I’ll be wrong.</p>
<p>With that said, I’ll give my opinions: We are struggling
against the large transnational corporations that govern the
world. We know that their sacred principle, which they will
sacrifice any other consideration in order to fulfill, is<i>
“to gain more money in as little time as possible.” </i>They
know very well that the attack against nature to gain more
money will carry us to extinction, but this is much less
important than the fulfillment of their sacred principle.</p>
<p>This is the true morality of the system. Derived from this is
the ultra individualism which the system teaches us, even
though it doesn’t say so clearly: If you can take your
brother’s inheritance, do it. The sooner your parents die, the
better; you’ll get the inheritance. You should the best<i>, </i>the
victor; in order to ascend you have to crush the heads of
others. Bullying is the beginning of the moral apprenticeship
of this system; it does not exist among indigenous peoples
(and for those who are interested, look up “<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_%28philosophy%29" target="_blank">Ubuntu</a>”
on the internet.)</p>
<p>We know that these transnational corporations have at their
service the governments of the world, the parliamentary
majorities, the armies, the police, the judicial powers, the
supreme courts, and the means of communication. There are
governments who resist a little because of pressure from
below; they make a fuss, but in the end they capitulate.</p>
<p>It is against this that we must struggle, in defense of
nature, of humanity and its survival. Our strength is that
there are more of us below – if we awake and unite, the
triumph will be ours. Let us join hands with those at the
bottom of the whole world. We must be consistent in unmasking
all the governments.</p>
<p>Our goal is that humanity governs itself, without bosses,
without leaders. Loving, respecting, and caring for our Mother
Nature. Everyone loving and respecting each other. You are my
other I. Everyone in their time and place will see how to
struggle. There can be organizations of local resistance,
parties; provincial, national and international networks.
“Wanderer, there is no path – the path is made by walking.”<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftn8" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftnref8" target="_blank">[8]</a></p>
<p><i><b>Quincy Saul</b> is the author of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1570272964/counterpunchmaga" target="_blank">Truth
and Dare: A Comic Book Curriculum for the End and the
Beginning of the World</a>, and the co-editor of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1604860596/counterpunchmaga" target="_blank">Maroon
the Implacable: The Collected Writings of Russell Maroon
Shoatz</a>. He is a musician and a co-founder of <a href="http://www.ecosocialisthorizons.com/" target="_blank">Ecosocialist Horizons</a></i>.</p>
<p><i><b>Hugo Blanco</b> is leader of the <a title="Confederación Campesina del Perú" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederaci%C3%B3n_Campesina_del_Per%C3%BA" target="_blank">Confederación
Campesina del Perú</a> (CCP, Campesino Confederation of
Peru), leader of Trotsky’s <a title="Fourth International" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_International" target="_blank">Fourth
International</a><sup><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Blanco#cite_note-1" target="_blank">[1]</a></sup><sup><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Blanco#cite_note-2" target="_blank">[2]</a></sup> and
author of numerous books including <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0873482662/counterpunchmaga" target="_blank">Land
or Death: The Peasant Struggle in Peru</a>.</i></p>
<p>Notes.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftnref1" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftn1" target="_blank">[1]</a><a href="mailto:raulzibechi@gmail.com" target="_blank">
raulzibechi@gmail.com</a><b> / </b><a href="mailto:em_rozental@yahoo.com" target="_blank">em_rozental@yahoo.com</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftnref2" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftn2" target="_blank">[2]</a> “Impidamos la extincion de la
especie humana” by Hugo Blanco</p>
<p><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftnref3" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftn3" target="_blank">[3]</a> “12 de octubre Día de la resistencia
¡Fuera minería del Perú!” by Hugo Blanco</p>
<p><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftnref4" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftn4" target="_blank">[4]</a><i> “The great deficiency in our work
in La Convencion and in Cuzco was the absence of a
well-organized party. Our failure to broaden the movement,
the lack of a more correct view of the process, the
putschist deviation of some comrades, the very poor
organization of the armed struggle, were symptoms first and
foremost the absence of a party, of a vanguard nucleus whose
capabilities would correspond to the magnitude of the
peasant movement that developed… As for the absence of the
party in the countryside, it is indisputable that this was
due to a serious syndicalist deviation on my part, produced
not by an erroneous conception on this matter, but by other
causes…”</i> <a href="tel:%281972" value="+661972" target="_blank">(1972</a>, p36)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftnref5" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftn5" target="_blank">[5]</a> “Hoja de vida de Hugo Blanco” by
Hugo Blanco</p>
<p><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftnref6" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftn6" target="_blank">[6]</a> “Let’s Save Humanity from
Extinction,” by Hugo Blanco, Capitalism Nature Socialism, July
2013</p>
<p><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftnref7" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftn7" target="_blank">[7]</a> “Let’s Save Humanity from
Extinction,” by Hugo Blanco, Capitalism Nature Socialism, July
2013</p>
<p><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/19/from-indigenous-struggle-to-ecosocialism/#_ftnref8" name="14d7ac07e936b980_14d7566805085e75__ftn8" target="_blank">[8]</a> From a poem by Antonio Machado.</p><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888">
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<p></p>
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