<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:bookman old style, new york, times, serif;font-size:10pt"><div><span><span style="font-weight: bold;">Yay!</span> An actual "case history" in "matriarchal studies", a potential "transformative" node of learning if one wanted to see it that way? </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span>And in attempting to sincerely see it in that more "potentialized" way:</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;
"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span>Sometimes historic ignorance of all the particulars is not always a terrible place to come from in weighing in on a long and detailed dispute, despite one's wariness and admitted lack of facts. But isn't that the kind of "history" and repeated breakdowns in communication that most dissension and grudges and conflicts really come from, in most, though not all, cases of conflict? It seems to me that is an important area to be prepared to look at and resolve in a "Commons forum" a la Denis and Anna's comments. In particular I find the communication of the internet, even
in mostly erudite and reasoned forums such as this one, consistently reflects a much greater tendency towards this very kind of polarized mis-communication versus interpersonal face-to-face communication, even when it too is also already polarized and therefore fraught with potholes of derailed communication. (Usually time for a good "mediator" at that point :-).</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; "><span>So I truly do see Michel's points and frustration, think it has real history and actual perceived hurts and damages he might feel remain unaddressed sufficiently by Willi. And Willi, clearly some of what you say, the way you say it, definitely
appears to be <span style="font-style: italic;"><span>meant</span> </span>in provocation. From a completely out-of-the-loop and again, ahistorical perspective it was my impression that you comments on David Bollier, who again I claim complete ignorance about but don't feel in this case I need that knowledge to ascertain this, were just <span style="font-style: italic;">unnecessarily</span> provocative. To me, and remember I tend to come from this realm of managing large groups of younger people and their sometimes more evidently honest emotional needs, it did seem a "cry for attention". If so, it got it but I can't imagine in the way you actually most wanted it?</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old
style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; "><span>Because of my lack of knowledge of the true facts and history, despite all the words that have gone by on this topic on this forum, I am willing to defer to Michel's call on his own needs for maintaining a list (as he clearly is one of the ones who invests most in its maintenance), that he feels is personally comfortable and respectful of himself and others. But wouldn't this very issue, again a la the matriarchal studies conversation that does in fact address this very concept of diversity and communication and frames of true understanding of the underlying needs attempting to be heard in that communication, <span style="font-style: italic;">potentially exist at the very core of how the "Commons" <span style="font-weight: bold;">must</span> learn to resolve such issues and disputes?</span> We certainly know they have to happen, will naturally continue to happen, are
constantly happening in all such attempts to bridge different worlds, viewpoints, ways of seeing and communicating of which the "Commons" is necessarily based upon? Or truly how is that vision of the "Commons" going to end up any differently under what we already see as dominant forms of control and accepted communication?</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span>It's true, not all such disputes are always resolvable. But it is also true that since they will indeed be a critical part of opening the conversation of what makes a Commons more "common to all" despite the limits of its dominating forms of communication now
used by everyone by default on the internet because of its initiators and strongest proponents -- developed-world "educated" English as the primary language, and left-brain rational as the primary mode of valued communication often ignoring emotional discriminatory or devaluing undertones that are still felt and heard by those sensitive to them -- that we have to remain blind and resigned to accepting those very limitations in that communication? I honestly think that will never ultimately work in creating that wider, broader more inclusive "Commons" discussion.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span>Thus, as most usually my
stance, I think there is real learning to be done here and it is the learning most necessary to truly form these needed bridges across diverse communications. I also grant how sincerely frustrating it can be to open these issues up to a totally foreign, and currently very dominant-discourse-demeaned potentially more "irrational" way to have these discussions, again preferably interpersonally initially, in order to get to true hurts and even true feelings about those trespasses.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal; "><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; "><span>Because I honestly and deeply believe without seeing this and subsequently trying that communication with this more difficult
and even uncomfortably awkward new perspective in mind <span style="font-style: italic;">and heart</span>, which ie forms the core of the message of "matriarchal studies", we will continue to narrow our communication to that which most constricts the resolution of these very natural and consistently re-occuring conflicts in any attempt at any viable, sustainable and even ultimately enjoyable, true "Commons".</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: italic; "><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; ">Is that possible?</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;
"><span> </span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 10pt; "> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; "> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Anna <anna@shsh.co.uk><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> "denis@postle.net" <denis@postle.net>; P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> "p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" <p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 21, 2014 9:49 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 44, Issue 43<br> </font> </div> <div
class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv9415129053"><div><div><span></span></div><div></div></div><div><div>I do not find Willi's 'desperation' as inadmissible as others seem to find it. It raises a question which is seriously being addressed in other circles about how to make a living while making one's work available to as many as possible. We can focus on the principles he raises without getting offended by the personal criticism. They are important questions. By excluding him we only weaken the diversity expressed on this list, diversity which actually enriches rather than threatens our aspirations. Individuals can exclude his contributions if they wish, without restricting the traffic of the whole.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Anna</div><div><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv9415129053yqt5433101992" id="yiv9415129053yqtfd48555"><br clear="none">On 21 Aug 2014, at 07:25, Denis Postle <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:d.postle@btinternet.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:d.postle@btinternet.com">d.postle@btinternet.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div><div class="yiv9415129053yqt5433101992" id="yiv9415129053yqtfd00595"><blockquote type="cite"><div>
</div></blockquote></div></div><div class="yiv9415129053yqt5433101992" id="yiv9415129053yqtfd00114"><div>
I don't doubt Willi has to go. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
If you are reading this Willi, your messages seem to be written from
a place of distressed desperation and I suspect that with the
Bollier book message you may, intentionally or not, be actually
seeking rejection. Some of us can get into a psy framework where
such rejection is necessary to sustain our view of the world or
ourselves and eventually we may succeed in getting our wish.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
That said, I wonder if there is anything we need to attend to re P2P
Foundation governance and its (our) public presence? Don't Willi's
provocations amount to the third such attack this year on, or
resistance to, the P2P Foundation's accumulation of power? At a
minimum, the power to define what matters in economic and social
futures? <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I don't know the answer to this but having experienced a few attacks
myself, I have come to see all dissent, including that coming from
distress, as carrying a story that can have value for the target.
What is this opposition trying to tell us?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I find the Foundation hugely valuable but I still find its, (our?)
governance less than transparent. The present debacle has been
useful for me in opening this out a bit and also in providing an
example for the parallel discussion under 'matriarchy' which
provides a very relevant context for these questions.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Thanks Michel for the facebook posting of some of my remarks there.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Goodbye Willi. Take care.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Denis<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv9415129053moz-cite-prefix">On 20/08/2014 18:09, Michel Bauwens
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
</blockquote></div><div><div dir="ltr">I used to maintain a strong rule of no personal
attacks on the list, but I must say I have gotten tired to be
the only one reacting,
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Willi, who is notorious for these kinds of attacks and
false accusations, is clearly making a gratuitous accusation
against our friend David Bollier, whom I know as a lifelong
activist for the commons, at great personal sacrifice, and the
contrary of someone who uses the commons for private personal
gain.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>does everyone find that normal ? do we have to the time to
spend answering such provocations ?</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>personally, it is here that I would give a warning to
Willi, and say, this is not the place for such unsupported
attacks, and please abstain or you will have to leave this
forum.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>But for Willi, this is just been systematic practice, so
the warnings have been repeated endlessly in various forums,
and it has had no effect,</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>So I'm requesting the removal of Willi from this list, as
he has been removed recently from the networked labour list,
exactly for the same reason,</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Kevin, as list manager, I believe this is your job?</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>personal defamation is not an acceptable practice on this
list,</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>I am not going to get into a debate on this, but if any
people would find it such practices normal, I would propose to
disband this list and start a new one where this rule is made
clear from the very beginning, avoiding endless discussions on
it,</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Michel Bauwens<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv9415129053gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message
----------<br clear="none">
From: <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:p2p-foundation-request@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:p2p-foundation-request@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation-request@lists.ourproject.org</a>></span><br clear="none">
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:49 PM<br clear="none">
Subject: P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 44, Issue 43<br clear="none">
To: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</a><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Message: 2<br clear="none">
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 09:49:22 -0500<br clear="none">
From: willi uebelherr <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:willi.uebelherr@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:willi.uebelherr@gmail.com">willi.uebelherr@gmail.com</a>><br clear="none">
Subject: [P2P-F] Fwd: Book of the Day: Think Like a Commoner<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Dear friends,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
i love the contributions of hartsellml. You think, David
Bollier is<br clear="none">
working for the commons?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
No. You see, he want to sell his books only. Try to find a
free access<br clear="none">
to his writing. He use the commons resource, our discussion,
our<br clear="none">
visions, our doing, our history to make a private buisness
with his<br clear="none">
description.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
many greetings, willi<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
-------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht --------<br clear="none">
Betreff: Book of the Day: Think Like a Commoner<br clear="none">
Datum: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:35:36 PDT<br clear="none">
Von: hartsellml<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Book of the Day: Think Like a Commoner<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
** Book: Think Like a Commoner<br clear="none">
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.newsociety.com/Books/T/Think-Like-a-Commoner">http://www.newsociety.com/Books/T/Think-Like-a-Commoner</a>>.
A Short<br clear="none">
Introduction to the Life of the Commons by David Bollier.
New Society, 2014*<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<fieldset class="yiv9415129053mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br clear="none">
<pre>_______________________________________________
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<blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br clear="none"><span>P2P Foundation - Mailing list</span><br clear="none"><span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net/">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a></span><br clear="none"><span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a></span><br clear="none"></div></blockquote></div></div></div><br><div class="yqt5433101992" id="yqtfd71553">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
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