<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Not surprisingly Andreas i agree with you 100%.</div><div><br></div><div>Everyone should bear in mind that the originators of this ill guided fiasco were spaniards by citizenship. NOT ecuadorans. Michel was summoned by daniel to quito. Met carlos via a teleconference and then announced to the world that the government of ecuador had asked for his help and would use the folk society to develop a plan to revision the ecuadoran state along the lines of a peer2peer commons. They had the promise of funding from three government entities but if you look at david bolliers announcement on i think sept 20 it was stated that the government of the country was behind the reform. That was certainly my impression. I did not do any due diligence until far too late</div><div><br></div><div>Michel undoubtedly HOPED it was the truth but it was NOT. because it has been pointed out that daniel and bernardo are now negotiating within he presidents office for further support for the folk and on another public list michel and bernardo have lowered their level of hostilities and bernardo offered a CV of his non psychopathic background. [see the paste in below.]</div><div><br></div><div>But ecuador despite the fact that correa has redistributed some wealth and gives sanctuary to assange is NOT a pretty place as i learned when having gotten daniels boot in my face i started doing my own research. I had relied on michel's opinion that this was a country sincerely interested in reform and like a too trusting fool barged right in trying to help. That a spaniard should have budgetary authority in quito is bizarre but thanks to cores promoteo program it represents ecuadoran reality.</div><div><br></div><div>evidently I was being referred to as a CIA agent neo con etc and michel has publicly stated that he delayed looking at my policy draft for six weeks because of this. I continually complained to him that i was working in the dark and got tired of having it be this way. And yet he never said gordon things are pretty bizarre down here they are saying you are some kind of foreign agent and your work is not to be trusted. Had he done so i would have withdrawn then. I said to him as late as about april 20th i quit. he very politely encouraged me not to quit� said my work was really needed. Why would he not tell me what was really going on? Probably because doing so would damage his own position. And the promise of reward and followup projects that were being held out to him along with the possibility of punishment. NO money.</div><div><br></div><div>in my long report </div><div><a href="http://www.cookreport.com/pdfs/July-augCRecuadorfinal.pdf" style="font-size: 12px; ">http://www.cookreport.com/pdfs/July-augCRecuadorfinal.pdf</a></div><div><br></div><div>I reached a similar conclusion that, although he tried to build some links to the "people," it was essentially top down and foreign imposed. Michel points out that the seven foreign researchers were supposed to be joined by seven ecuadorians, but gosh�looks like the money wasn't in the budget. I suggest reading bethany horns report on the indigenous peoples under correa and then the amazon watch report on the yasuni and the interamerican and amazon watch reports on the chinese loans that are keeping correa afloat.</div><div><br></div><div>and now on the spanish p2p list after parting ways with bernardo we have this</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: auto; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; "><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><th align="RIGHT" nowrap="" valign="BASELINE">Asunto:</th><td>Re: [P2P-es] A parting of ways with Bernardo Gutierrez</td></tr><tr><th align="RIGHT" nowrap="" valign="BASELINE">Fecha:</th><td>Sun, 6 Jul 2014 13:06:29 -0300</td></tr><tr><th align="RIGHT" nowrap="" valign="BASELINE">De:</th><td>Bernardo Guti�rrez <a href="mailto:bernardobrasil@gmail.com" target="_blank"><bernardobrasil@gmail.com></a></td></tr><tr><th align="RIGHT" nowrap="" valign="BASELINE">Responder-a::</th><td>P2P Foundation - Lista de correo en espa&#241; ol <a href="mailto:p2p-lang-es@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank"><p2p-lang-es@lists.ourproject.org></a></td></tr><tr><th align="RIGHT" nowrap="" valign="BASELINE">A:</th><td>P2P Foundation - Lista de correo en espa&#241, ol <a href="mailto:p2p-lang-es@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank"><p2p-lang-es@lists.ourproject.org></a></td></tr><tr><th align="RIGHT" nowrap="" valign="BASELINE">CC:</th><td>p2p-foundation <a href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank"><p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org></a></td></tr></tbody></table><br><br><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>Hello you all (perdón por el inglés para la lista en español). <br><br></div><div class="">Nice to see that hostility is going down, Michel. As you know, the whole process and futures fork of FLOK are quite important. Having commited all the parts mistakes and havind a such a difficult scenarium (it is politic!), it would be childish to keep on fighting among us. I think that the 1%, the elite, is quite united, and that they will be enyoing this. But, anyway, the discussion, being constructive is always good. <br><br></div></div>You always speak about Gordon Cook, Michel. Among all the things you say..., by my side side there are just two things, that by, the way I just wrote in a mail feed (just one) in the most intense moment of the fight (before the summit) and never insisted in mailing lists, networks etc Even feeling that Cook Report is not fair and that he got private information from private communication, I did not comment it anywhere, never. I said that Gordon published copyright his whole life, until Cook Report. And that is ture. I said, in that moment,� that 'defending a neocon' that uses NSA tactics (violating privacy) was not good idea. Reading some of his works, may be yes, he is not the classeical neocon, even more progressive than I thougt, havind some clear liberal ideas, that I respect, of course. So, I can beg your pardon Gordon, for saying that defending� a neocon is not a good idea. And feel quite happy that your are not and that I am able to recognize mistakes!<br><br></div>But what we need is more version, stories about the FLOK not just yours, Michel. I understand that your not so optimistic now and that you felt dissapointed by some things. But there are such fantastic things that happened and that are still happening around the process, that it would be nice to light the positive things. Above, you can see a mail to a Spanish list from Daniel V� zquez, director of the FLOK. Michel was in charge of the research that was part of a quite bigger process. <br></div><div class="">I see, with some perspective, see some fantastic points of FLOK process: <br><br></div></div><div class=""><b>-FLOK as Method.</b> A new method for connecting academy with civil society, for connecting academy to politics, for connecting networks and movements to public policy. We have to remember that FLOK started as a quite top down project, more Goverment than civil society. And that now is completly different . The Summit was the prove that so many movements, networks, local leaders, indigenous people, hackers, worked hand by hand with politicians from local, regional and State. <br><br></div></div><b>-FLOK as a prototype</b>.� It was fantastic: all the papers of the research were considered drafts. A source code improved by collective intelligence. it is not easy for researchers to acknowledge that. And we have to flatter all of them. It was exciting to see George Dafermos, Restakis and Michel Bauwes seated with local people, working in this new academic prototype, real time public policy method. Just as an academic prototype it is quite an innovation. Here the PAD we created in Communication Team for openning the research: <a href="http://floksociety.org/pad/p/comunicainvestiga" target="_blank">http://floksociety.org/pad/p/comunicainvestiga</a> Even having done just a part, the work made, leaded by Michel, the one who used more networked methods in the research, was amazing. So, FLOK is an academic new sorce font remixing method. <br><br></div>-<b>Extitutions: new institucionality.</b> Some how, FLOK became a new type of institution, and in-out institution, a liquid one, not exactly State not exactly civil society, with some independet corners, commosn oriented, working inside the machine to create public policy. I like very much the concept of Extitución (spanish link), former institution � <a href="http://viveroiniciativasciudadanas.net/2012/07/05/extitucion-netizens-y-mas/" target="_blank">http://viveroiniciativasciudadanas.net/2012/07/05/extitucion-netizens-y-mas/</a>� <br><div><br>� <br></div><div>For all of this, It would be nice to get more versions of FLOK. Now, there are 14 ecuatorian leaders working with the last part of this first era of FLOK and thinking how to implement de pilot projects. For me, It would complete this source font of the research with real projects, real time prorotypes. And would be wonderfull. Let´s ask them!<br><br></div><div class="">About the Partner State, Michel. I think that may be Ecuador is not prepared . I am sure that your commitment will develop this in other country in the next years. In my opinion, in Ecuador, the prototyping method of public policy has more chances of being real than the Partner State.<br><br></div><div>Thanks for flattering now the communication strategy, at least the guerrilla part. But in my 20 years in communication and have done (and do) many different things beyond guerrilla. From El Pais to Squire, from National Geographic to La Repubblica, from CLarin to Al Jazzera, I have publish (still do ) in some of the most important newspapers and magazines of the world. In the last years, my commitment with copylef is so big that I just write in copyleft media (many, just look for my name in the web). I research in academy (in the group of Manuel Castells), do consultant work for the commons, publish books (the last, collective, with Michael Hardt and Toni Negri) and I am jury of differente prizes, now ofr Gabriel García Márquez Journalims Prize (the most important in Latin America), in Technology field. So, I have some differente communicational aproches to share. I did share them in FLOK process. And, being honest, I think it worked in the creation of participation. <br></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Jul 7, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Andreas Wittel <<a href="mailto:andreas.wittel@gmail.com">andreas.wittel@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><p class="" style="margin-bottom:0cm">I hesitate to comment
on this project, as I have only followed this from a distance.
However a good number of comments in this threat make me really
nervous. I am reading that 'seeds have been planted', that the FLOK
research papers can become part of the commons movement in Equador,
that lessons have been learnt and that it is all about doing it
better next time.</p><p class="" style="margin-bottom:0cm">I'd rather see this as
a one-off project and hope sincerely there is no next time where a
bunch of experts are aiming to create profound changes in a society
they are not really familiar with. This is a post-colonial approach
and should be rejected. It is as easy as that.</p><p class="" style="margin-bottom:0cm">Every undergraduate
anthropology student knows that it is highly problematic to conduct
western research in non-western spaces. This is about otherness and
authority, about who speaks and who is being researched. All this is
common knowledge since the 'writing culture' debate in the mid 1980s.</p><p class="" style="margin-bottom:0cm">How much more dubious
and arrogant is the FLOK approach, which was not just about
researching another (indigenous) society, but about so called experts
giving advice for a better living in a country they don't know well.
This is so na�ve, it is actually embarrassing. It is us who should
learn from them.</p><p class="" style="margin-bottom:0cm">Sorry for these harsh
words addressed to researchers that I respect a great deal. But nobody has made this critique so far. I
cringe at the idea that lessons are being learnt so we can do it
better next time. For me this project was politically and ethically
wrong. Digital technologies don't make localities disappear. Let's
please support p2p structures and the commons movements where we live
and where we struggle.</p><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm; ">
<br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="" style="margin-bottom:0cm">All best,
</p><p class="" style="margin-bottom:0cm">andreas</p><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br><a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>