<div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Örsan Şenalp</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:orsan1234@gmail.com">orsan1234@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 4:20 PM<br>Subject: [Networkedlabour] Cyberpunk, anarchism, network thinking, and cooperatives - interview las Indias' David de Ugarte by P2P-F, Global Guerillas and Shreable<br>To: "<a href="mailto:networkedlabour@lists.contrast.org">networkedlabour@lists.contrast.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:networkedlabour@lists.contrast.org">networkedlabour@lists.contrast.org</a>>, commoning <<a href="mailto:commoning@lists.wissensallmende.de">commoning@lists.wissensallmende.de</a>>, "<a href="mailto:nettime-l@mail.kein.org">nettime-l@mail.kein.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:nettime-l@mail.kein.org">nettime-l@mail.kein.org</a>>, squares <<a href="mailto:squares@lists.takethesquare.net">squares@lists.takethesquare.net</a>><br>
<br><br>very interesting interview by<br>
<br>
Neal Gorenflo, from Shareable, Michel Bauwens, from the P2P<br>
Foundationand John Robb, from Global Guerrillas, interview las Indias'<br>
David de Ugarte<br>
<br>
Translated/Re-edited * by Stacco Troncoso, edited by Jane Loes Lipton<br>
- Guerrilla Translation!<br>
Images by Las Indias and Shareable<br>
Read the Spanish version here<br>
<br>
In this interview, Shareable publisher Neal Gorenflo, John Robb of<br>
Global Guerrillas, and P2P foundation's Michel Bauwens talk to David<br>
de Ugarte, one of the originators of the Spanish cyberpunk scene,<br>
about his more recent work developing a multinational worker<br>
cooperative, Las Indias, that is a culmination of his community's<br>
thinking and work for the last decade. Las Indias is the manifestation<br>
of a unique socio-economic philosophy that synthesizes many strains of<br>
thinking and culture including cyberpunk, anarchism, network thinking,<br>
and cooperatives - all with a Spanish twist. It's important because it<br>
points to a possible future for those who think outside of national<br>
boundaries, and who desire or need to take control of their own<br>
economic destiny. It's a possible future that takes the centuries-old<br>
logic of cooperatives and remixes it for the urban-centered, global<br>
network society we live in today.<br>
<br>
Michel Bauwens: Explain to us what Las Indias is, where it comes from,<br>
and what makes it distinctive?<br>
<br>
David de Ugarte: Las Indias is the result of the Spanish-speaking<br>
cyberpunk movement. Originally a civil rights group, during the late<br>
90s it became strongly influenced by Juan Urrutia's "Economics of<br>
Abundance" theory. We soon linked "abundance" with the idea of<br>
empowerment in distributed networks. We are very clear on this point:<br>
it is not the Internet by itself, it is the distributed P2P<br>
architecture that allows the new commons. As one of our old slogans<br>
put it: "Under every informational architecture lays a structure of<br>
power." Re-centralizing structures - as Google, Twitter, Facebook,<br>
Megaupload, etc. do around their servers - weakens us all. The<br>
blogosphere, torrents, freenet, etc. are tools of empowerment.<br>
<br>
Cyberpunk was mainly a conversational / cyberactivist virtual<br>
community. It became transnational quickly, and contributed some very<br>
good discussions and theories that helped us understand the social<br>
impact and possibilities of distributed networks.<br>
<br>
But in 2002, three of us founded Las Indias Society, a consultancy<br>
firm focused on innovation and networks dedicated to empowering people<br>
and organizations. Our experience soon became very important in<br>
understanding the opposition between "real" and "imagined"<br>
communities, and the organizational bases for an economic democracy.<br>
After the cyberpunk dissolution in 2007, the "Montevideo Declaration"<br>
openly stated that our objective will be to construct a "phyle," a<br>
transnational economic democracy, in order to ensure the autonomy of<br>
our community and its members.<br>
<br>
We define ourselves around five main values:<br>
<br>
Distributed network architectures as a way of generating abundance,<br>
empowerment, and to ensure the widest plurarchy - the maximum of<br>
individual liberties - for the members of our community.<br>
Transnationality (which means a rejection of national identities as<br>
well as universalism) as a consequence of putting the real community<br>
of persons who live and work in Las Indias at the center of our work.<br>
Economic democracy as the way to build personal and community autonomy<br>
through the market.<br>
Hacker ethics as a way to foster community knowledge generation,<br>
common deliberation, personal passion, and a collective pleasure in<br>
learning.<br>
Devolutionism: all our production of knowledge - books, software,<br>
contents, even recipes - is returned to the commons, generating more<br>
abundance.<br>
<br>
Neal Gorenflo: What is the vision of Las Indias? What would the<br>
classic, most developed form be in the future? What are you after in<br>
terms of how it can transform individuals, interpersonal<br>
relationships, and the world?<br>
<br>
Neal Gorenflo<br>
<br>
Our vision is not a universalist one. We don't proselytize and we<br>
really believe that diversity is a desirable consequence of freedom.<br>
<br>
But we have a vision for us - the phyle - and a wish: to see the birth<br>
of a wider, transnational space of economic democracies. We imagine<br>
networks of phyles generating wealth, social cohesion, and ensuring<br>
liberties for real people rather than the governments' power and their<br>
borders and passports.<br>
<br>
We are not naive nor utopian. Distributed networks gave our generation<br>
the opportunity to build a new world. But this new world, based on the<br>
commons, communities, economic democracy and distributed networks,<br>
isn't completely born. And the old world, based on the artificial<br>
generation of scarcity, corporations, inequality, and centralized<br>
networks, isn't dead.<br>
<br>
It is very symptomatic that the European crisis manifests as a debt<br>
crisis. Governments are suffocating society in order to feed<br>
privileged groups - big corporations, some sectors dependent on public<br>
money - who have captured state rents or ensured it through<br>
monopolistic law. So, the main objective and the main vision now is to<br>
stop these decomposing forces in our environments.<br>
<br>
MB: How does Las Indias work internally? How is it funded?<br>
<br>
There are different levels of engagement and commitment. As a phyle we<br>
are really a network. On the periphery, there are individual<br>
entrepreneurs with their initiatives. At the core, there are the<br>
associated cooperatives, and at that core, the Indianos.<br>
<br>
We differentiate between the community (the core of the phyle) and the<br>
Cooperative Group.<br>
<br>
Indianos are communities that are similar to kibbutzim (no individual<br>
savings, collective and democratic control of their own coops, etc.).<br>
But there are some important differences like the lack of a shared<br>
national or religious ideology, being distributed throughout cities<br>
rather than concentrated in a compound, and not submitting to an<br>
economic rationality.<br>
<br>
John Robb: What kind of coops are in the Las Indias network? What are<br>
the synergies between the cooperatives?<br>
<br>
At this moment we have three coops: Las Indias (a consultancy), El<br>
Arte (our new product lab), and Enkidu (Open Software). There are also<br>
three participative enterprises that employ some 20 people.<br>
<br>
All of them are expressions of our members' different passions, which<br>
answer the different needs of our community and environment.<br>
<br>
MB: How do you position yourself vis-a-vis the current global<br>
capitalist system? What alternative are you proposing?<br>
<br>
Michel Bauwens<br>
<br>
We think cooperatives and economic democracy (a rent-free market<br>
society), hand in hand with a liberated commons as the alternative to<br>
capitalism, can be made possible through distributed networks.<br>
<br>
But we are economic democrats, so we don't want the state to provide<br>
the alternative to crony-capitalism and accumulation. Indeed, we think<br>
it can't. We have to build it by ourselves, and demand the state to<br>
remove the obstacles (as IP, contracts for big politically connected<br>
corporations, etc.) that protect privileged groups' rents from<br>
competition in the market.<br>
<br>
The alternative will not be built through government regulations, but<br>
inside our own networks. It will not defeat the corporate organization<br>
through courts or elections, but through competition.<br>
<br>
NG: We live in a world saturated in corporate media. How do you<br>
maintain a culture of cooperation at Las Indias in the face of this<br>
onslaught of atomizing, consumerist messages? What spiritual or<br>
cultural practices and artifacts can you point to that are especially<br>
helpful?<br>
<br>
All of us spent many years sharing small apartments downtown, walking<br>
or going to work by bus, working in bad jobs through school and after<br>
finishing our degrees. It is not a unique condition, it is the reality<br>
of the job market in Spain, Portugal, and many Latin American<br>
countries in a wide group of middle class children of our generation.<br>
<br>
David de Ugarte<br>
<br>
The result of this experience for many people was a particular culture<br>
that mixed a lot of immaterial, cultural consumption - some of it<br>
provided for free, by the state - with a reduced access to consumerism<br>
compared to older people.<br>
<br>
In <a href="tel:1996" value="+661996">1996</a>, I was 26 and finishing a degree in economics in Madrid. I<br>
worked in a call center earning 450 EURO a month, working eight hours a<br>
day from four to midnight. I spent 300 EURO on rent, around 100 EURO for food,<br>
electricity, telephone and public transport, and 48 EURO on an Internet<br>
connection. As you can imagine, my "leisure" time was spent around the<br>
public library, museums, the public filmotheque (classic movies were<br>
60 cents a ticket), at cheap potluck dinners and, of course, online.<br>
<br>
My experience was not extraordinary at all, and it's even more common now.<br>
<br>
This mode of cultural consumption is based on public cultural goods,<br>
cheap second-hand or popular edition books, and "cocooning." The P2P<br>
world made sense in our everyday culture.<br>
<br>
So, some years later our incomes increased and we earned autonomy, but<br>
for us a good living still means good broadband, access to cultural<br>
works, good museums, and good meals in comfortable but not very<br>
expensive flats downtown. None of us has a car or has bought a house.<br>
<br>
But please don't be confused. We don't make a cult of austerity. We<br>
simply have a different culture, we enjoy different things. None of us<br>
has a TV either, but many of us have projectors for watching videos<br>
off the Internet.<br>
<br>
NG: In Spain, you're often associated with the cyberpunk movement,<br>
which was born in the US in the early 80s. How has cyberpunk<br>
influenced you and Las Indias? And how is cyberpunk relevant today?<br>
<br>
Cyberpunk activism was strongly influenced by cyberpunk literature.<br>
Even today, classic cyberpunk works like Bruce Sterling's Islands in<br>
the Net and Green Days in Brunei, and post-cyberpunk like Neal<br>
Stephenson's The Diamond Age, provide models for discussing subjects<br>
we think are important at this moment: distributed vs. centralized<br>
networks, economic democracy vs. corporate power, etc.<br>
<br>
Cyberpunk taught us to discuss in a mode outside the political<br>
tradition: not around theses and programs, but around models and<br>
myths, where auto-criticism and irony were easier and dogmatism almost<br>
impossible.<br>
<br>
MB: For me, some of the most innovative concepts in the Las Indias<br>
books were the concepts of phyles and neo-venetianism. What do these<br>
mean?<br>
<br>
Phyle is a community that develops an economic structure based on<br>
economic democracy in order to ensure its own autonomy. The order of<br>
the terms is important: phyle is a community with firms, not a<br>
community of firms, nor a community of people who own some firms. The<br>
firms are tools for the autonomy of the community - a means, not an<br>
end - and are always less important than the needs of community<br>
members.<br>
<br>
Neovenetianism is the ideology of those who see the creation of phyles<br>
as the natural evolution of their communities, so that this evolution,<br>
its dialogues and deliberations, would be free from the influence of<br>
the political and economic decomposition of the states and the markets<br>
they live in.<br>
<br>
Virtual communities are by nature transnational. If they have borders,<br>
these are the borders of language. A few days ago I saw a tweet<br>
saying, "When the Canadian border crossing guards asked me where I was<br>
from, I was really tempted to say 'the internet.'" Many people feel<br>
like that tweeter. But that causes a kind of schizophrenia: life<br>
becomes divided in two, the virtual life and the working life. Phyles<br>
reunify our lives around our intentional virtual community.<br>
<br>
MB: What do the new concepts of the sharing economy (Shareable), p2p<br>
(P2P Foundation), the commons, and resilience (Global Guerrillas)<br>
evoke for you, and how does Las Indias relate to them?<br>
<br>
P2P means distributed networks, commons, abundance. It's the meaning of life!<br>
<br>
The sharing economy means community, autonomy, commons, gift, joy,<br>
abundance again. It is the real sense of our core, the "how-to" of<br>
abundance, the way we live.<br>
<br>
Resilience is at the same time the golden rule and the consequence of<br>
building community on a shared economy under a P2P architecture. It is<br>
our main virtue and the only thing that can guarantee survival even<br>
under increasing global decomposition.<br>
<br>
JR: Any plans for micro-finance or a bank to speed cooperative growth?<br>
<br>
John Robb<br>
<br>
We made a big effort to set up partnerships with mutual benefit<br>
societies and credit coops in South America. Our idea was to bring in<br>
our knowledge and criteria to create viable and productive coops,<br>
while the credits coops would attract new solid, stable members in the<br>
mid-term.<br>
<br>
However, a series of accidents and health issues in the middle of 2012<br>
affected our plans, and that idea had to be abandoned as the Indianos<br>
decided to "regroup" in Europe. So, we've had to develop these ideas<br>
in different ways for the last year and half.<br>
<br>
In September 2012 we created Fondaki-SIP-ner, along with a dozen small<br>
industrial companies, many of them coops. Fondaki is a not-for-profit<br>
public intelligence consultancy that helps small and medium<br>
enterprises find new markets and develop new lines of innovation, two<br>
key issues for small enterprises and coops looking to face the<br>
consequences of the current crisis without destroying employment,<br>
while creating social cohesion. In January 2013 the younger Indianos<br>
founded Enkidu, the first coop created by our core group since the<br>
beginning of the crisis in 2008.<br>
<br>
And, of course, we're still focused on the globalization of "the<br>
small". We think that's one of the key issues today. In 2012, along<br>
with the Garum Foundation, we worked on the development of "Bazar",<br>
which is free software for the creation of distributed commercial<br>
networks. It's something we'd like to take up again, and which would<br>
complement the development of the Direct Economy, probably the most<br>
important opportunity for generating communal autonomy today.<br>
<br>
JR: How long does it take to train a regular person in cooperative<br>
business practices? Are there plans for teaching cooperative thinking<br>
online to grow it faster?<br>
<br>
It takes time! Unfortunately, almost everything in the mainstream<br>
culture teaches us that the world is a zero-sum game, and that markets<br>
must be ruled by jungle law. But the simple truth is that they<br>
shouldn't be, and we, people, can make the difference.<br>
<br>
What we've noticed these last few years is that one of the most<br>
destructive side effects of the crisis is how it affects people's<br>
confidence in their own capabilities. Especially in Europe, among the<br>
generation that finished its studies post-2008, the effect is often<br>
devastating. People find it very hard to believe that the system can<br>
offer them a future when it can't even offer them a job. But it's also<br>
difficult to imagine your own future, an alternate endeavor of one's<br>
own, when every other conversation, year after year, comes back to the<br>
"no future" scenario.<br>
<br>
This is why, towards the end of 2013, we've re-oriented our whole<br>
communications strategy, <a href="http://especiallylasindias.com" target="_blank">especiallylasindias.com</a>, towards "an<br>
interesting life". During all these years, from cyberpunk to 2012, we<br>
were characterized by striving to provide a perspective on the<br>
political significance of technology. That was also at the core of our<br>
books, from "Like a vine, not like a tree" in 2003 to "The P2P mode of<br>
production" in 2012. But now we feel the need to focus on something<br>
more basic, an ethical, empowering perspective without which the<br>
questions we're looking to answer wouldn't make any sense. Why would<br>
anyone want to partake in commons-oriented peer production when they<br>
can't even imagine a future for their own community? How will anyone<br>
create or join a cooperative when they think that any collective<br>
decision-making process is something authoritative?<br>
<br>
JR: How do Las Indias cooperatives tie into the physical community?<br>
<br>
Our sense of community is indeed very physical on all levels. The<br>
inner circle, los indianos, try to work together as much as possible,<br>
sharing offices or houses.<br>
<br>
The wider community, the aggregation of our families and close<br>
friends, is at the center of our concerns. I mean, it's not only the<br>
question of time management, the possibility of spending more time<br>
with your people than in a "normal job." The kind of security you<br>
build in a model like ours it is not only about yourself, you know<br>
that all the common resources will be ready for your family and your<br>
people if they will need it.<br>
<br>
MB: Where will humanity be in 20 years?<br>
<br>
I hope we will see big transnational spaces with freedom of movement<br>
and trade, instigated by networks of economic democracies building<br>
wider commons accessible to everyone.<br>
<br>
We'll see. I hope to see the erosion of this idea called capitalism,<br>
according to which a single production factor -- capital -- is the sole<br>
determinant of a company's ownership. The reduction of the scale of<br>
production has been the one fundamental tendency that's remained<br>
constant over the last century. As a result, capital isn't as scarce<br>
as it was at the birth of the present economic system. In fact, as the<br>
value of production is further tied to factors such as creativity or<br>
knowledge, the entire pyramid-like organizational structure becomes<br>
ever more dysfunctional, highlighting the need for cooperative<br>
protocols in companies.<br>
<br>
I hope we will live in a society where capitalism will be marginal but<br>
with a market that will not allow rents nor privileges, where the mix<br>
of small and ubiquitous tools of production will be furthered by big<br>
global repositories of public domain designs as innovative and popular<br>
as free software is now.<br>
<br>
I hope that in twenty years we will be living in a transnational<br>
society, but it is not historically determined. There are a lot of<br>
agents pushing towards recentralization: IP lobbies, big Internet<br>
firms, rent seekers, state machinery, financial interests, global<br>
mafias, etc. So the possibility of terminal nationalism and statism<br>
with its social decomposition is also there.<br>
<br>
The choice between a society of freedom, based in an egalitarian<br>
market and robust commons, and global decomposition depends of our<br>
actions in this decade.<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div><b>Please note an intrusion wiped out my inbox on February 8; I have no record of previous communication, proposals, etc ..</b></div><div><br></div>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>
<br><a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank"></a>Updates: <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
<br>#82 on the (En)Rich list: <a href="http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/" target="_blank">http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/</a> <br></div>
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