Hi Edu,<br><br>I gave the example of air to show that considering scale in looking after a given element really does not make sense. We have to find a way to protect what is essential for the benefit of all. If that involves some private property there would be no harm as long as the element was cared for in the interests of humanity as a whole, - what you refer to as 'lmanaging their property quite well'. I presume you don't mean just in their own interests to the exclusion of the interests of humanity as a whole. I believe that is the level which we have to consider. As long as that is priority I would agree with you that public or private is less relevant.<br>
Your point about survival being the primary motive force of evolution is also debatable. See eg Jeremy Rifkin 'The Empathic Civilisation, and Lynne McTaggart 'The Bond'. It is less a question of imposing a new moral regime, as allowing what is inherent to emerge.<br>
<br>Anna<br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 4:26 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:edubraat@dds.nl" target="_blank">edubraat@dds.nl</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Anna,<br>
<br>
There is a saying that we won't have peace untill the last king is<br>
strangled with the innards of the last priest. If you update this to<br>
the last capitalist strangled with the innards of the last bureaucrat,<br>
we still will not be safe, I'm afraid.<br>
<br>
Although I agree that lots of problems come from private ownership,<br>
there have always been many private owners who managed their<br>
properties quite well, just as there have been many stewards who<br>
didn't take care too well of what was trusted to them.<br>
I think the point Hardin made was that it's foremost a matter of scale.<br>
And there is a lot of evidence (from Jared Diamond and others) that so<br>
called indigenous tribes didn't care about their surroundings (and<br>
neighbours) at all.<br>
<br>
I do believe we are making some progress but it's a long haul as<br>
humans did not evolve as moral animals but as very adaptable survivors<br>
and opportunists. Perhaps we have to wait for the Singularity ;+)<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
Edu<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
Quoting Anna Harris <<a href="mailto:anna@shsh.co.uk">anna@shsh.co.uk</a>>:<br>
<br>
> The 'commons' is now seen as more than a piece of land which was used as<br>
> shared grazing. The air we breathe is, or should be regarded as a<br>
> 'commons', which needs to be protected for this and future generations, as<br>
> is a long list such as water, seeds, oceans, the internet, etc. Many<br>
> elements which have become commodified, ie in private hands, and used for<br>
> profit, should be available freely. Land too should come into this<br>
> category. For many indigenous peoples the idea of land belonging to someone<br>
> is ludicrous.<br>
><br>
> However that does not mean that they can be used to the point of extinction<br>
> as is happening now with private ownership. They do often require<br>
> management, as in air pollution, so the recognition of status as a commons<br>
> implies stewardship, international agreements to protect for this and<br>
> future generations. Such agreements may be difficult, but they are<br>
> essential for a sustainable society.<br>
><br>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 3:14 PM, <<a href="mailto:edubraat@dds.nl">edubraat@dds.nl</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Hi,<br>
>> I happen to have read the original article The Tragedy of the Commons<br>
>> by Garrett Hardin (Science, 13 december 1968) the other night (you'll<br>
>> find it on the net) and it argues that the commons is only a good idea<br>
>> as long as the community is small and everybody knows each other, so<br>
>> ca. 150 people (the Dunbar number). Once it gets bigger, problems<br>
>> arise which just can't be solved.<br>
>><br>
>> Best regards,<br>
>> Edu Braat,<br>
>> founder of Workpatch, member of Share.nl, the Dutch P2P foundation<br>
>><br>
>> Quoting Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>>:<br>
>><br>
>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
>> > From: Jon Wheatley <<a href="mailto:jonw@plutobooks.com">jonw@plutobooks.com</a>><br>
>> > Date: Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 5:35 PM<br>
>> > Subject: New From Pluto Press - Nature for Sale: The Commons versus<br>
>> > Commodities<br>
>> > To: Jon Wheatley <<a href="mailto:jonw@plutobooks.com">jonw@plutobooks.com</a>><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > *<br>
>> ><br>
>> > **<br>
>> ><br>
>> > � � � � � � � P R E S S �R E L E A S E<br>
>> ><br>
>> > **<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -- Traces the erosion of the commons from the Industrial Revolution to<br>
>> > today?s neo-liberalism, arguing that a new commons is needed today. �--<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > *<br>
>> ><br>
>> > *<br>
>> > *<br>
>> ><br>
>> > *Nature for Sale:<br>
>> > The Commons versus<br>
>> > Commodities*<br>
>> ><br>
>> > * *<br>
>> ><br>
>> > *Giovanna Ricoveri*<br>
>> ><br>
>> > *Foreword by** Vandana Shiva*<br>
>> ><br>
>> > **<br>
>> ><br>
>> > *Out Now*<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > PB / �14.99 / 9780745333700 / 215mm x 135mm �/ �June 13<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > *This book fills a gap, as it allows to understand the foundations for<br>
>> > waging a survival struggle against an encroaching climate. It will help<br>
>> > readers to penetrate the systematic nature of the war against Nature and<br>
>> it<br>
>> > can be a very useful tool in strengthening the movements to stop the<br>
>> > assault.*<br>
>> ><br>
>> > *Saul Landau, Vice Chair of the Institute for Policy Studies, Berkeley*<br>
>> ><br>
>> > **<br>
>> ><br>
>> > *An historical-philosophical inquiry into an alternative route to the<br>
>> > current devastating economic and social order. Written by one of the<br>
>> > leading intellectuals of the Italian left, among the first in Europe to<br>
>> > deal with political ecology issues.*<br>
>> ><br>
>> > *Grazia Francescato, leading environmentalist and previous leader of the<br>
>> > Italian Green Party*<br>
>> ><br>
>> > **<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Nature for Sale uncovers the rich heritage of common ownership which<br>
>> > existed before the dominance of capitalist property relations. Giovanna<br>
>> > Ricoveri argues that the subsistence commons of the past can be<br>
>> reinvented<br>
>> > today to provide an alternative to the current destructive economic<br>
>> order.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Ricoveri outlines the distinct features of common ownership as it has<br>
>> > existed in history: cooperation, sustainable use of natural resources and<br>
>> > decision-making through direct democracy. In doing so, she shows how it<br>
>> is<br>
>> > possible to provide goods and services which are not commodities<br>
>> exchanged<br>
>> > on the capitalistic market, something still demonstrated today in village<br>
>> > communities across the global South.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Tracing the erosion of the commons from the European enclosures at the<br>
>> dawn<br>
>> > of the Industrial Revolution to the new enclosures of modern capitalism,<br>
>> > the book concludes by arguing that a new commons is needed today. It will<br>
>> > be essential reading for activists as well as students and academics in<br>
>> > history, politics, economics and development studies.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > *Giovanna Ricoveri is a writer and activist. She is the author of a book<br>
>> on<br>
>> > the commons in Italian, Beni comuni vs Merci (2010) and editor of Beni<br>
>> > comuni tra tradizione e futuro (2005). She is the founding editor of<br>
>> > Capitalismo Natura Socialismo, which is part of the international network<br>
>> > Capitalism Nature Socialism.*<br>
>> ><br>
>> > *<br>
>> > *<br>
>> ><br>
>> > **<br>
>> ><br>
>> > *For further information, to request a review copy or to speak to the<br>
>> > author please contact Jon Wheatley at <a href="mailto:jonw@plutobooks.com">jonw@plutobooks.com</a> or on 0208 374<br>
>> > 6424*<br>
>> > *<br>
>> > *<br>
>> ><br>
>> > *<br>
>> > *<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> �-<br>
>> <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > <<a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>> >Updates:<br>
>> > <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > #82 on the (En)Rich list: <a href="http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/" target="_blank">http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/</a><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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