<br clear="all"><div>Thanks Kevin for these illuminating comments.</div><div><br></div><div>- celibacy must also be seen in the context of their times, i.e. where unbridled sexuality with limited birth control technologies caused many additional social problems (child killing, child abandonment, child abuse, see the Institute for Psychohistory for their history of child abuse); the majority of monks were surplus males from both feudal and popular environments who could not benefit from inheritance mechanims, as well as a huge number of abandoned children which were routinely deposited at monastic doors (the famous 'tourniquet' were especially designed for that); with their mutualizing of knowledge and resources, they were essentially the intellectual class in their societies, next to the working farmers and warrior nobility, and especially in christian lands, they were the depositors and progenitors of technical knowledge and advancement</div>
<div><br></div><div>in premodern worldviews, spiritual work was not parasitic on the contrary, it was seen as the pinnacle of civilization, and the population felt they had a huge debt to the monks and the Church for these intercessionary services; these apart from the fact that churches and monasteries were the very centers of social life, for festivals, medical care, food reserves, and the like; in times of routine feudal abuse, monastic lands were also the refuge for widows and orphans</div>
<div><br></div><div>by the way, before the 11th cy, priests were married, and churches were often private property, while monasteries were generally run by the family members of the nobility on which lands they were settled �(it was called the 'adelskirche' by historians)</div>
<div><br></div><div>You could argue that intentional communities are the pluri-gender descendants of the monastic communities and they are doing quite well in our times; given the huge number of empty church buildings, there is a huge opportunity to create a new wave of spiritual co-working centers, such as the Borderlands Augustine ctr in Melbourne, The Monastery in Manchester, or the church building taken over by the p2p-oriented communautique in Montreal,</div>
<div><br></div><div>Michel</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>XXX</div><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:54:12 +0700</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">From: Kevin F <</span><a href="mailto:kev.flanagan@gmail.com" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">kev.flanagan@gmail.com</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">></span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Subject: Re: [P2P-F] The Economics of Monasticism by Nathan Smith</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">To: P2P Foundation mailing list <</span><a href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">></span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Message-ID:</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">� � � � <</span><a href="mailto:CACpSwUeeaExQQ26TCkBFSyzsJsJbq%2B7ZX%2Bs_CNLsS1fAppK6XQ@mail.gmail.com" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">CACpSwUeeaExQQ26TCkBFSyzsJsJbq+7ZX+s_CNLsS1fAppK6XQ@mail.gmail.com</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">></span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Hi Anna,</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Monastics also provided services to the communities of which they are</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">a part. In the past the monasteries were great repositories of</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">knowledge. They were not limited to scriptural works alone. In the pre</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">print era scribes also produced copies of philosophical, technical and</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">historical works. They provided opportunities for people to educate</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">themselves and in turn those same people became stewards of that</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">knowledge which was of general benefit to communities that grew up</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">around the monasteries.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Now as you say it is true that as celibate institutions they fail to</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">reproduce themselves. However it can also be said that the knowledge</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">of which the monasteries were caretakers contributed to the</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">sustainability and in turn the re-productivity of the lay communities</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">and that seeing monasteries as socially valuable in this way was one</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">reason people from those communities chose to join.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Of course this is not the only motivation to join. For some it was to</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">pursue the spiritual life, for others it was to escape poverty, while</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">others joined because of social or family pressure.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">One of the big rules was that monks and nuns should not own property.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">If monks or nuns were to have families things become more complicated</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">as humans tend to look out for the welfare of their own before that of</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">the community as a whole. One of the arguments for celibacy in the</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">church is that it acts as an anti corruption measure. When Priests,</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Abbots and Nuns have families it is easy for mini dynasties to emerge</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">as quite quickly it is the son of the Abbot who inherits his fathers</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">prestigious and influential role. This situation is avoided when they</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">are required to be celibate.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">The other advantage of a celibate community is that its members have</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">more time to focus on intellectual work. When this is applied to</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">technical problems, inventive and innovative solutions can be shared,</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">improving the health and sustainability of the broader lay community.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">All of these dynamics change as societies become better off. Today we</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">no longer depend on monasteries to preserve and reproduce important</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">texts. Nor do we depend on them for education or health. None of this</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">was true 500 years ago. As the quality of life improves for people</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">across the globe the appeal of monastic life is waning. Everywhere</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">fewer and fewer young people are taking vocations. The tables have</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">turned in a way. While at one time communities depended on monasteries</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">�today most monasteries depend heavily on charity. What they have to</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">offer society more generally has come into question and their futures</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">are indeed uncertain.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">I do not wish to romanticise the historical role of monasteries, I</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">just want to point out that their social function has changed over</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">time. While I agree that today these institutions have become in some</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">sense parasitic my point is that it was not always so.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">What I gained from reading this paper was more from the analysis of</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">incentives and motivations both of which can be applied to analysis of</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">intentional communities. Also worth considering is the power of shared</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">values that may be not be so strong in more secular arrangements.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Regards</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.571428298950195px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Kevin</span></div>
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<br>#82 on the (En)Rich list: <a href="http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/" target="_blank">http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/</a> <br>