<i>interesting!</i><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 7:37 PM, mp <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mp@aktivix.org">mp@aktivix.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
...free will probably exists, but if it does, then it will be very<br>
difficult to achieve in the haze of pressures, distortions, illusions<br>
and confusions arising from societal and market pressures, family and<br>
friends, not to mention evolutionary encoding, habits and all the<br>
contrivances with which we surround ourselves.<br>
<br>
However, it seems to me that Western philosophers, as is common, are<br>
looking in the wrong places, and therefore won't find anything of use.<br>
Perhaps they lack free will and act much too much on institutional leanings.<br>
<br>
Were I to explore the concept of free will, I would start with an<br>
in-depth investigation of wu wei or the doctrine of non-action - if you<br>
know when *not* to act, that is if you are able to resist<br>
preprogramming, then you might be closer to freedom. I would complement<br>
that with studies of magic, i.e. "the art and science of causing changes<br>
in consciousness in accordance with will".<br>
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
On 30/12/11 10:56, Michel Bauwens wrote:<br>
> I remember reading a whole article in the xmas issue of new statesman while<br>
> I was in europe this month, 3-4 pages of critique against free will, from<br>
> richard dawkins or similar scientist (it could have been dennett) but then<br>
> mysteriously concluding that though we don't have free will, we have<br>
> 'choice' ... in other words, ending up in the same place<br>
><br>
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 4:36 PM, robert searle <<a href="mailto:dharao4@yahoo.co.uk">dharao4@yahoo.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> My old kheper article might be of amusement though a more advanced one is<br>
>> in the pipeline, and this "new" presentation which is also more complex<br>
>> will be known as the Eleutherian Theory.<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://www.kheper.net/essays/A_Certain_Ethical_Problem_in_Esotericism.html" target="_blank">http://www.kheper.net/essays/A_Certain_Ethical_Problem_in_Esotericism.html</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
</div>>> *From:* Peter Mazsa <<a href="mailto:peter.mazsa@theunitedpersons.org">peter.mazsa@theunitedpersons.org</a>><br>
>> *To:* <a href="mailto:dharao4@yahoo.co.uk">dharao4@yahoo.co.uk</a>; <a href="mailto:psidoc@gmail.com">psidoc@gmail.com</a><br>
>> *Cc:* P2P Foundation mailing list <<a href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</a>><br>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, 29 December 2011, 22:19<br>
>> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Do you believe in free will??<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5">>><br>
>>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 5:34 AM, robert searle <<a href="mailto:dharao4@yahoo.co.uk">dharao4@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The materialist Christopher Hitchins who died very recently was asked<br>
>> the<br>
>>>> following question (ref source Richard Dawkins/Radio Four).<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Do you believe in free will?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Yes, I have no choice!<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The following is a somewhat long bio on CH<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens</a><br>
>><br>
>> On 29 December 2011 19:58, Paul Hughes <<a href="mailto:psidoc@gmail.com">psidoc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> I have argued that the answer is ultimately yes:<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.realitysandwich.com/super_free_will" target="_blank">http://www.realitysandwich.com/super_free_will</a><br>
>><br>
>> FYI: The Strong Free Will Theorem<br>
>><br>
>> "[...] our theorem asserts that if experimenters have a certain<br>
>> freedom, then particles have exactly the same kind of freedom. Indeed,<br>
>> it is natural to suppose that this latter freedom is the ultimate<br>
>> explanation of our own.<br>
>> [...] It may well be true that classically stochastic processes such<br>
>> as tossing a (true) coin do not help in explaining free will, but<br>
>> [...] adding randomness also does not explain the quantum mechanical<br>
>> effects described in our theorem. It is precisely the “semi-free”<br>
>> nature of twinned particles, and more generally of entanglement, that<br>
>> shows that something very different from classical stochasticism is at<br>
>> play here.<br>
>> Although the FWT [Free Will Theorem] suggests to us that determinism<br>
>> is not a viable option, it nevertheless enables us to agree with<br>
>> Einstein that “God does not play dice with the Universe.” In the<br>
>> present state of knowledge, it is certainly beyond our capabilities to<br>
>> understand the connection between the free decisions of particles and<br>
>> humans, but the free will of neither of these is accounted for by mere<br>
>> randomness.<br>
>> [...] determinism may formally be shown to be consistent, there is no<br>
>> longer any evidence that supports it, in view of the fact that<br>
>> classical physics has been superseded by quantum mechanics, a<br>
>> non-deterministic theory. The import of the free will theorem is that<br>
>> it is not only current quantum theory, but the world itself that is<br>
>> non-deterministic, so that no future theory can return us to a<br>
>> clockwork universe."<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://www.ams.org/notices/200902/rtx090200226p.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ams.org/notices/200902/rtx090200226p.pdf</a><br>
>><br>
>> Cf.<br>
>> <a href="http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/35391/title/Math_Trek__Do_subatomic_particles_have_free_will" target="_blank">http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/35391/title/Math_Trek__Do_subatomic_particles_have_free_will</a><br>
>> P.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
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