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May I propose a perhaps controversial, and worrying suggestion?<br>
<br>
Are these investors... the people RESPONSIBLE... us?<br>
<br>
Is the real issue that none of us understand the intricacies of the
world economic system, but we still have nice, secure, responsible
things like PENSIONS and BANK ACCOUNTS?<br>
<br>
We entrust our assets (well unfortunately, I don't - I don't have a
pension) to pension providers because what we want to buy is low risk,
good return investment for our old age. The problem is that, even if we
read the small print from our pension fund, and attend endless meetings
with our "independent financial advisers" we're simply not equipped to
understand the nuances and side-effects of our investments will have.<br>
<br>
I suggest that the world financial system is sufficiently dynamic and
complex to be beyond human understanding, EVEN IF you make a career out
of studying it.<br>
<br>
So at that meeting we look our financial adviser in the eye, and say
"Hey, let's cut to the chase - is this investment going to fund wars in
foreign countries? Is it going to bankroll landmine dealers and
cigarette companies? No? And is it going to make a reasonable return
and be safe for my retirement? Yes?"<br>
<br>
Job done. That's the limit of the "due diligence" a layman CAN apply.<br>
<br>
I think I own a few hundred pounds' worth of shares (part of some bank
restructuring, I think...) but I've never voted at a shareholders'
meeting. I've no idea who or what I'd be voting for, or what the
implications of my vote would be. I've not even delegated my votes to
an informed proxy - because I don't know what their approach or
attitude is - and I have no idea how to find out.<br>
<br>
And no - I don't have time to make a career out of it. Hell, I don't
even know what those shares are worth - less than 500 UKP, I gather...
But if it all evaporates, I wouldn't be surprised - I have better
things to think about. I, and many (most?) of my fellow shareholders
and pension holders, are asleep at the financial wheel. And we haven't
got the time or expertise, or information to wake up.<br>
<br>
We've ended up in a situtation which is so complex, so interlinked, and
so incomprehensible (note: "incomprehensible" - not "uncomprehended")
that we simply cannot make informed moral choices.<br>
<br>
We're not the problem - our context is.<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
James<br>
=====<br>
<br>
On 14/12/11 00:41, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOX4E5HA2qJ0rGLwQZsEJASKwmihmCD8xQ=k34K5FEwU87-nVA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Gordon, I recently saw a documentary in which one
economist, probably from the ECB, said that they were trying to track
down the debt of the European countries so as to erase debt in
situations in which 2 parties had a debt to each other. He said that
they failled miserably in their efforts.
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2011/12/14 Gordon Cook <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:cook@cookreport.com">cook@cookreport.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;">thank you Patrick. I suppose
you are a few steps ahead of me and i generally LIKE what you say.
However my questions still stands. Under the current system <font
size="4"><b>who are these investors?</b></font>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I suspect that the answer is we really don't know and i also
suspect that the current system is constructed so that we will never
find out. Since the current system has no transparency we are left at
the mercy of a system that because it contains some legitimate users.
Coupon clipping grandmother perhaps allows market manipulators to take
over and pillage an economy in the manner that used to require an
invading army.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is there anyway to find out?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Has anyone of more so called professional standing than you or
i suggested that it would be worthwhile to find out?
<div class="im"><br>
<div>=============================================================<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>
<div>On Dec 13, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Investing for Profit incents scarcity and destruction. This
is the<br>
way of Capitalism.<br>
<br>
Investing for Product incents abundance and peace. This the way
forward.<br>
<br>
Profit is undefined when Product is ROI.<br>
<br>
Only Conumers as Investors can accept Product as the return for risk.<br>
<br>
We will forever have internal conflicts and the seemingly inescapable
paradoxes<br>
until we choose Consumers as our Investors, and pay them with Product
while<br>
never needing to sell that Product except during Surplus.<br>
<br>
In that case, when Surplus is sold, we should collect the Profit from
those<br>
latecomers and treat it as their own Investment in Use-Value
production, so<br>
that all Consumers incrementally gain the co-ownership needed to insure<br>
they have the Products they need without resorting to the use of Tokens.<br>
<br>
One of these days someone will understand this message, and then we can<br>
begin to reclaim our planet, but not before.<br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<span
style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;">
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
</pre>
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Sincerely yours, </pre>
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;"> Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre>
</span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre wrap="">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
James Wallbank
CEO, Access Space Network Ltd.
Access Space, Unit 1, AVEC Building, 3-7 Sidney St, Sheffield S1 4RG
Access Space is UK Registered Charity: #1103837
Tel: +44 (0)114 2495522
Fax: +44 (0)114 2495533
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://access-space.org">http://access-space.org</a>
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