Or we could simply co-opt the current infrastructure. Plenty of people already working on making that happen.<br clear="all"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>--</div>Alex Hardman (770.406.6430)<br><a href="http://www.nycga.net/members/sunflame/" target="_blank">http://www.nycga.net/members/sunflame/</a><br>
<div><font color="#0000ee"><u><a href="http://occupyatlanta.org/contact-communicate/members/sunflame/profile/public/" target="_blank">http://occupyatlanta.org/contact-communicate/members/sunflame/profile/public/</a></u></font></div>
<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Patrick Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:agnucius@gmail.com">agnucius@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Miles Fidelman wrote:<br>
> Somebody has to actually do the work of getting organized, and to effect any<br>
> economies of scale that involves raising and investing serious amounts of<br>
> money BEFORE there's any return. �Either:<br>
><br>
> a. Taking money out of current income (take the money I'm using to buy<br>
> groceries, to help set up a new store, or farm, or buy chickens, or<br>
> whatever) - not a viable option for most, or,<br>
<br>
It is true that many people live paycheck to paycheck, and cannot<br>
afford to invest money, though some are out of work, and so could<br>
invest their time.<br>
<br>
But some have a bit of extra money and are actually looking for<br>
somewhere to invest.<br>
<br>
I would love to pre-pay for raw milk if I could then get that Product at Cost.<br>
<br>
Mutual Funds are one way people already invest without knowing how to<br>
accomplish that production.<br>
<br>
Think of this as Mutual Funds, but for Use-Value returns.<br>
<br>
<br>
> And then there's the whole aspect of getting organized, which involves<br>
> either spending large amounts of time, or hiring folks and paying them, or<br>
> both.<br>
<br>
Yes, consumers don't know how to do that, but they could invest<br>
'blindly' as they already do, but with at-cost Product as the return.<br>
<br>
So what I am talking about might be thought of as Use-Value Crowd<br>
Funding - where the investors are not skilled in those areas, but are<br>
simply adding money for the purpose of receiving at-cost Product as a<br>
side-effect of their co-ownership in the Means of that Production.<br>
<br>
><br>
> By and large, one has to operate at a pretty large scale to get costs down<br>
> to the level of a supermarket, or Walmart. �The question remains, who's<br>
> going to bother?<br>
<br>
True, but people continue to try opening such stores. �For example,<br>
<a href="http://Wasatch.coop" target="_blank">http://Wasatch.coop</a> will attempt to open as a consumer owned grocery<br>
store, supposedly co-owned by the consumer-investors.<br>
<br>
I say 'supposedly' because these co-owners do not pre-pay for Products<br>
and then receive them at Cost, but instead pre-pay and then *buy* the<br>
Products back from their collective selves - paying Profit and Taxes<br>
during that final, unnecessary transaction.<br>
<br>
><br>
><br>
>><br>
>> Verizon collected $1.38 Billion from us last quarter. �But when we,<br>
>> the consumers co-own a network, we only pay the costs, so for a<br>
>> network the size of Verizon, we would pay $1.38 Billion *less* every 3<br>
>> months.<br>
><br>
> Verizon also has a huge organization, 100s of thousands of miles of copper<br>
> and fiber installed on poles and under streets, and a huge amount of<br>
> experience - not to mention tremendous monthly cash flow.<br>
><br>
> Lots of luck replicating that from scratch. �Guaranteed it will cost more<br>
> than what Verizon charges now.<br>
><br>
<br>
Yes, the ramp-up is difficult, and so what you say is true at first,<br>
but once we have some critical-mass, we will be operating at Cost<br>
(except for any needed growth funded by latecomers paying Profit), and<br>
so will undercut all Capitalist endeavors - eventually attracting all<br>
possible consumers to join us as co-owners of the backbone of a<br>
distributed internet.<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Patrick Anderson<br>
<a href="http://ImputedProduction.BlogSpot.com" target="_blank">http://ImputedProduction.BlogSpot.com</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br>