<br>I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a movement of non-representational individuals<div><br></div><div>but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in any of the ows actions or pronouncements ...</div>
<div><br></div><div>there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr Natalie's "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's interpret things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist would accept refusing access to different races on private property grounds...</div>
<div><br></div><div>from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent of what you and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the stress is about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt takeover of corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are against consumption culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea party action I saw mentioned somewhere)</div>
<div><br></div><div>now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it,</div><div><br></div><div>for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official paulista demands</div><div><br></div>
<div>Michel</div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org">devin@sarapisfoundation.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS.� <br><br>Who do you think keeps camps running?� People who demand things from government, or people who demand things from themselves?<br>
<br>OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
hi Devin,<br><br>I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on corporate media like Fox News<br><br>BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,<br>
<br>for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of education,� abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media,<br>
<br>in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these videos,<br><br>Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are impossible<br>
<font color="#888888">
<br></font></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font color="#888888">Michel</font><div><div></div><div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org" target="_blank">devin@sarapisfoundation.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
This is such an old paradigm conversation.<br><br>First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this person."� <br>
<br>Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess.� It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking place.<br>
<br>Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out of the progressive media press releases.� Do some independent research.� Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need to end.<div>
<div></div><div><br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:'Calibri';color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12pt">
<div>Regret using the term �lot�s of�-that IS something I�ve picked up on the
net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where
you�re going with this. It resembles political control in line with Southern
segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences (promoting
a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny
of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in the name of a better
society.</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;display:inline;font-family:'Calibri';color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:small;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none">
<div style="font:10pt tahoma">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background:none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245,245,245)">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">Michel Bauwens</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM</div><div><div></div><div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">P2P Foundation mailing
list</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the
Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge</div></div></div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div><div><div></div><div>
<div style="font-style:normal;display:inline;font-family:'Calibri';color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:small;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none">hi
natalie,<br><br>I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say,
'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have
seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one ..<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:'Calibri';color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12pt">
<div>Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal
acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you
may never know what�s � in their hearts.�� In a Democratic-General Assembly
kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don�t share your value
system? You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like
not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have
been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are
there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any
other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation.</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;display:inline;font-family:'Calibri';color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:small;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none">
<div style="font:10pt tahoma">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background:none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245,245,245)">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">Michel Bauwens</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">P2P Foundation
mailing list</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End
the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge</div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;display:inline;font-family:'Calibri';color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:small;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none">
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net" target="_blank">christian@siefkes.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div>Michel Bauwens wrote:<br>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM,
Christian Siefkes <<a href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net" target="_blank">christian@siefkes.net</a>>wrote:<br></div>
<div>>> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help
foster your goals?<br>>> > Where do you draw the
line?<br>><br>> good question, I would draw the line with explicitely
'anti-p2p' forces<br>> such as racism, genderism, etc
..<br><br></div>Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires
treating others as<br>your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist,
homophobic, sexist,<br>anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence
their participation is<br>likely do to more bad than
good.<br><br>Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own
bodies (while,<br>of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in
doubt), hence it<br>is equally 'anti-p2p'.<br></blockquote>
<div><br><br>well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this
as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with
catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing
proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc
..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of
course, I disagree with this,� but I find it has little practical
importance in the cooperation<br></div>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>> a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free
software, and you<br>> discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop
working with her?<br>><br>> these are by no means easy questions,
FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose<br>> values I object to
...<br><br></div>I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his
possible<br>more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his
insights<br>about free software. </blockquote>
<div><br>they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor
<g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts
involving the whole population ..<br><br>�</div>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">Some time ago I discovered that the author of a
little<br>piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing
views:<br><a href="http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/" target="_blank">http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/</a> . That didn't
stop me from using<br>his software, nor from contributing a little patch
back to him, of course.<br><br>So I don't think people having personal views
contrary to my own is a<br>problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation
in a project. But on the<br>other hand I would think it very wrong to invite
people with such<br>standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints --
which is what<br>anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea
Party" is<br>proposing to do.<br></blockquote>
<div><br>I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party
organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force;
but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source
libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are
the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.<br></div>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><br>And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's
participation in a<br>project would cause black people to leave to product,
or discourage them<br>from joining it, since they could feel no longer
welcome, then it would be<br>the racist who would have to leave so as to
correct the situation. I hope we<br>agree on that?<br></blockquote>
<div><br>yes<br><br>�<br></div>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>> what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around
the 3<br>> priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3
??<br><br></div>"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine
goals, and it<br>seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the
Tea Party--near<br>candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that
such alliances<br>will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will
increase acceptance<br>for causes that are anti-emancipatory and
'anti-p2p'.<br></blockquote>
<div><br><br>ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and
the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I
respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal
political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key
goals <br><br>at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and
maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become
strained<br><br>Michel<br><br><br></div>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>Best regards<br>������
Christian<br><br>--<br>|------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- <a href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net" target="_blank">christian@siefkes.net</a>
-------<br>| Homepage: <a href="http://www.siefkes.net/" target="_blank">http://www.siefkes.net/</a> | Blog: <a href="http://www.keimform.de/" target="_blank">http://www.keimform.de/</a><br>|��� Peer
Production Everywhere:������ <a href="http://peerconomy.org/wiki/" target="_blank">http://peerconomy.org/wiki/</a><br>|----------------------------------
OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 --<br></div>It is only the identification of a
Them that makes it possible for us to<br>live with the epidemic of Aids in
Africa or the death of thousands of<br>children each day from curable
diseases. The existence of capitalism is<br>conceivable only on the basis of
the dulling of our feelings ... that<br>enables us to erect private morality
into a wall to keep out the pain of<br>the world.... Communism is the
movement of intensity against the dulling of<br>feeling that makes the
horrors of capitalism possible.<br>������ --
John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking
Power<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>P2P
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