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<DIV>Thank You Devin-Awesome! How can we help each other???</DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=devin@sarapisfoundation.org
href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org">Devin Balkind</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 27, 2011 11:39 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">P2P Foundation mailing
list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the
Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">I
assume you recognize how condescending your tone is but speak this way because
you derive some pleasure from engaging in partisan political conflicts. I
don't. I find it endlessly frustrating. <BR><BR>I'm going to repeat
the demands I've posted here many times before: (1) end the wars and dismantle
the American empire, (2) end drug prohibition, (3) end the federal reserve
bank's monopoly on the production of legal tender.<BR><BR>Nader gets it: <A
href="http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progressive-libertarian-alliance/">http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progressive-libertarian-alliance/</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Michel Bauwens <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><BR>I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and
indeed nobody needs permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a
movement of non-representational individuals
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in any
of the ows actions or pronouncements ...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr Natalie's
"Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's interpret
things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist would accept
refusing access to different races on private property grounds...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a
progressive role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent of
what you and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the stress
is about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt takeover of
corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are against consumption
culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea party action I saw
mentioned somewhere)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for
it,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official paulista
demands</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT color=#888888>
<DIV>Michel</DIV></FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org"
target=_blank>devin@sarapisfoundation.org</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with
OWS. <BR><BR>Who do you think keeps camps running? People who
demand things from government, or people who demand things from
themselves?<BR><BR>OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the
closest thing to an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>michel@p2pfoundation.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>hi Devin,<BR><BR>I personally am very thankful for
progressive media like Democracy Now in order to get at least some quality
info circulated and not relying on corporate media like Fox
News<BR><BR>BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ...
some of them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo
tags,<BR><BR>for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry
to restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation
of education, abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50%
profiteers, etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive
media,<BR><BR>in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating
these videos,<BR><BR>Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of
his views unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work
with ows of course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete
questions are impossible<BR><FONT color=#888888><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><FONT color=#888888>Michel</FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org"
target=_blank>devin@sarapisfoundation.org</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>This is such an old paradigm
conversation.<BR><BR>First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at
OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we
don't support this person." <BR><BR>Second, the fact that so many
folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different
political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm
thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking
place.<BR><BR>Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are
straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some
independent research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs,
US colonialism and the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies
aren't absolutely terrible and need to end.
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net"
target=_blank>10natalie@cox.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr>
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<DIV>Regret using the term �lot�s of�-that IS something I�ve picked up
on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is
I fear where you�re going with this. It resembles political control in
line with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise
their preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at
worst, an Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is
still tyranny-and all in the name of a better society.</DIV>
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<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=michel@p2pfoundation.net
href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target=_blank>Michel
Bauwens</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target=_blank>P2P
Foundation mailing list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We
Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government |
ZeroHedge</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">hi
natalie,<BR><BR>I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you
even say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic
slogans, I have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not
seen a single one ..<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie
Golovin <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net"
target=_blank>10natalie@cox.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists
illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First,
in many cases-you may never know what�s � in their hearts.�� In a
Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude
people because they don�t share your value system? You draw the line
with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not working for
a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been
many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they
are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of
speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of
segregation.</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245)">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=michel@p2pfoundation.net
href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target=_blank>Michel
Bauwens</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target=_blank>P2P
Foundation mailing list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We
Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government |
ZeroHedge</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian
Siefkes <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net"
target=_blank>christian@siefkes.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>Michel Bauwens wrote:<BR>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31
PM, Christian Siefkes <<A href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net"
target=_blank>christian@siefkes.net</A>>wrote:<BR></DIV>
<DIV>>> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it
could help foster your goals?<BR>>> > Where do you draw
the line?<BR>><BR>> good question, I would draw the line
with explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces<BR>> such as racism,
genderism, etc ..<BR><BR></DIV>Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer
production requires treating others as<BR>your peers, as equals,
and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist,<BR>anti-semitic views
won't be able to do that, hence their participation is<BR>likely
do to more bad than good.<BR><BR>Anti-abortion is about denying
women's right over their own bodies (while,<BR>of course, men's
rights over their bodies are never put in doubt), hence it<BR>is
equally 'anti-p2p'.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><BR>well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me,
I see this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and
communicated with catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian
(support distributing proprety, catholic worker movement, live in
collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion objectionable
because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with
this, but I find it has little practical importance in the
cooperation<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV><BR>> a question for you: if you are working on a piece of
free software, and you<BR>> discover your co-developer is KKK,
would you stop working with her?<BR>><BR>> these are by no
means easy questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose<BR>>
values I object to ...<BR><BR></DIV>I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun
standpoint and some of his possible<BR>more-or-less racists
sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his insights<BR>about free
software. </BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral
metaphor <g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and
distributed efforts involving the whole population
..<BR><BR> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Some time ago I discovered that the author of a
little<BR>piece of free software I'm using has shockingly
right-wing views:<BR><A
href="http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/"
target=_blank>http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/</A> .
That didn't stop me from using<BR>his software, nor from
contributing a little patch back to him, of course.<BR><BR>So I
don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is
a<BR>problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a
project. But on the<BR>other hand I would think it very wrong to
invite people with such<BR>standpoints precisely *because of*
their standpoints -- which is what<BR>anybody who talks about
"building an alliance with the Tea Party" is<BR>proposing to
do.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea
party organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing
political force; but a few people call themselves that way and are
pro-open source libertarians; they should disown the label instead
of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and all the others are
fake.<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><BR>And, of course, if (say) an openly racist
person's participation in a<BR>project would cause black people to
leave to product, or discourage them<BR>from joining it, since
they could feel no longer welcome, then it would be<BR>the racist
who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I hope
we<BR>agree on that?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>yes<BR><BR> <BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV><BR>> what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul,
around the 3<BR>> priorities of ending the war, ending the war
on drugs and 3 ??<BR><BR></DIV>"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending
the war on drugs are fine goals, and it<BR>seems to me that Ron
Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea Party--near<BR>candidates
currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such
alliances<BR>will ultimately do more bad than good, since they
will increase acceptance<BR>for causes that are anti-emancipatory
and 'anti-p2p'.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><BR>ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil
rights and the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such
an alliance, though I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better
position, by eschewing formal political alliances altogether, and
seeking broad commonality on a few key goals <BR><BR>at least for
the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation require
much more radical steps, even such commonality may become
strained<BR><BR>Michel<BR><BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV><BR>Best regards<BR>
Christian<BR><BR>--<BR>|------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- <A
href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net"
target=_blank>christian@siefkes.net</A> -------<BR>| Homepage: <A
href="http://www.siefkes.net/"
target=_blank>http://www.siefkes.net/</A> | Blog: <A
href="http://www.keimform.de/"
target=_blank>http://www.keimform.de/</A><BR>|
Peer Production Everywhere: <A
href="http://peerconomy.org/wiki/"
target=_blank>http://peerconomy.org/wiki/</A><BR>|----------------------------------
OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 --<BR></DIV>It is only the
identification of a Them that makes it possible for us to<BR>live
with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands
of<BR>children each day from curable diseases. The existence of
capitalism is<BR>conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of
our feelings ... that<BR>enables us to erect private morality into
a wall to keep out the pain of<BR>the world.... Communism is the
movement of intensity against the dulling of<BR>feeling that makes
the horrors of capitalism
possible.<BR> -- John
Holloway, Change the World Without Taking
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clear=all><BR>-- <BR></DIV></DIV><FONT color=#888888>Devin
Balkind<BR>Director, Sarapis Foundation
<DIV><A href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org"
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target=_blank>http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
Foundation - Mailing list<BR><A href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://www.p2pfoundation.net</A><BR><A
href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Devin Balkind<BR>Director, Sarapis Foundation
<DIV><A href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org"
target=_blank>devin@sarapisfoundation.org</A><BR>@devinbalkind</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
Foundation - Mailing list<BR><A href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://www.p2pfoundation.net</A><BR><A
href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all>
<DIV> </DIV>-- <BR>P2P Foundation: <A href="http://p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://p2pfoundation.net</A> - <A
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</A> <BR><BR>Connect: <A
href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com"
target=_blank>http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</A>; Discuss: <A
href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A>
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<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
Foundation - Mailing list<BR><A href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://www.p2pfoundation.net</A><BR><A
href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Devin Balkind<BR>Director, Sarapis Foundation
<DIV><A href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org"
target=_blank>devin@sarapisfoundation.org</A><BR>@devinbalkind</DIV><BR>
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