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<DIV>Agreed-and you can’t be replying to me. I support Ron Paul. I was answering
a post that said people shouldn’t cooperate with others if they had “incorrect”
positions & I disagreed with that. </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=devin@sarapisfoundation.org
href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org">Devin Balkind</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 25, 2011 12:35 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">P2P Foundation mailing
list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the
Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">This
is such an old paradigm conversation.<BR><BR>First of all - yes I've seen
anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to them there's usually soemone with a sign
that says "we don't support this person." <BR><BR>Second, the fact that so
many folks won't collaborate with each other because they have different
political beliefs is why we're in this mess. It's old paradigm thinking
and it's preventing a lot of much needed production from taking
place.<BR><BR>Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are
straight out of the progressive media press releases. Do some independent
research. Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and
the Federal Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible
and need to end.<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net">10natalie@cox.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
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<DIV>Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up on the
net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I fear where
you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line with Southern
segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their preferences
(promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an Orwellian
nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still tyranny-and all in
the name of a better society.</DIV>
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<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=michel@p2pfoundation.net
href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target=_blank>Michel Bauwens</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target=_blank>P2P Foundation
mailing list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End
the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government |
ZeroHedge</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">hi
natalie,<BR><BR>I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even
say, 'lots of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I
have seen hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one
..<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net"
target=_blank>10natalie@cox.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal
acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many
cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General
Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share
your value system? You draw the line with personal relationships and
voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay
politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you
not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns
freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a mockery-just another kind of
segregation.</DIV>
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<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=michel@p2pfoundation.net
href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target=_blank>Michel Bauwens</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target=_blank>P2P
Foundation mailing list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End
the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government |
ZeroHedge</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net"
target=_blank>christian@siefkes.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>Michel Bauwens wrote:<BR>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM,
Christian Siefkes <<A href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net"
target=_blank>christian@siefkes.net</A>>wrote:<BR></DIV>
<DIV>>> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help
foster your goals?<BR>>> > Where do you draw the
line?<BR>><BR>> good question, I would draw the line with
explicitely 'anti-p2p' forces<BR>> such as racism, genderism, etc
..<BR><BR></DIV>Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires
treating others as<BR>your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist,
homophobic, sexist,<BR>anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence
their participation is<BR>likely do to more bad than
good.<BR><BR>Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own
bodies (while,<BR>of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put
in doubt), hence it<BR>is equally 'anti-p2p'.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><BR>well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see
this as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with
catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing
proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property etc
..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of
course, I disagree with this, but I find it has little practical
importance in the cooperation<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV><BR>> a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free
software, and you<BR>> discover your co-developer is KKK, would you
stop working with her?<BR>><BR>> these are by no means easy
questions, FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose<BR>> values I object to
...<BR><BR></DIV>I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his
possible<BR>more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting
his insights<BR>about free software. </BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor
<g>; the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts
involving the whole population ..<BR><BR> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>Some time ago I discovered that the author of a
little<BR>piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing
views:<BR><A href="http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/"
target=_blank>http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/</A> . That didn't
stop me from using<BR>his software, nor from contributing a little patch
back to him, of course.<BR><BR>So I don't think people having personal
views contrary to my own is a<BR>problem as long as it doesn't hinder
cooperation in a project. But on the<BR>other hand I would think it very
wrong to invite people with such<BR>standpoints precisely *because of*
their standpoints -- which is what<BR>anybody who talks about "building an
alliance with the Tea Party" is<BR>proposing to do.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party
organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force;
but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source
libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they are
the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><BR>And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's
participation in a<BR>project would cause black people to leave to
product, or discourage them<BR>from joining it, since they could feel no
longer welcome, then it would be<BR>the racist who would have to leave so
as to correct the situation. I hope we<BR>agree on that?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>yes<BR><BR> <BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV><BR>> what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around
the 3<BR>> priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3
??<BR><BR></DIV>"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine
goals, and it<BR>seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the
Tea Party--near<BR>candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose
that such alliances<BR>will ultimately do more bad than good, since they
will increase acceptance<BR>for causes that are anti-emancipatory and
'anti-p2p'.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><BR>ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and
the like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though
I respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing
formal political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a
few key goals <BR><BR>at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances
and maturation require much more radical steps, even such commonality may
become strained<BR><BR>Michel<BR><BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV><BR>Best regards<BR>
Christian<BR><BR>--<BR>|------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- <A
href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net"
target=_blank>christian@siefkes.net</A> -------<BR>| Homepage: <A
href="http://www.siefkes.net/" target=_blank>http://www.siefkes.net/</A> |
Blog: <A href="http://www.keimform.de/"
target=_blank>http://www.keimform.de/</A><BR>| Peer
Production Everywhere: <A
href="http://peerconomy.org/wiki/"
target=_blank>http://peerconomy.org/wiki/</A><BR>|----------------------------------
OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 --<BR></DIV>It is only the identification of a
Them that makes it possible for us to<BR>live with the epidemic of Aids in
Africa or the death of thousands of<BR>children each day from curable
diseases. The existence of capitalism is<BR>conceivable only on the basis
of the dulling of our feelings ... that<BR>enables us to erect private
morality into a wall to keep out the pain of<BR>the world.... Communism is
the movement of intensity against the dulling of<BR>feeling that makes the
horrors of capitalism possible.<BR> --
John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking
Power<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
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clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Devin Balkind<BR>Director, Sarapis Foundation
<DIV><A href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org"
target=_blank>devin@sarapisfoundation.org</A><BR>@devinbalkind</DIV><BR>
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