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<DIV>Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists illegal
acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many cases-you
may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a Democratic-General Assembly kind
of system-how can you exclude people because they don’t share your value system?
You draw the line with personal relationships and voluntary acts like not
working for a polluter, or voting for an anti-gay politician. There have been
many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS protests. Do you not go because they are there?
Kick them out? Less than full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other
freedom into a mockery-just another kind of segregation.</DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=michel@p2pfoundation.net
href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">Michel Bauwens</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">P2P Foundation mailing
list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the
Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net">christian@siefkes.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=im>Michel Bauwens wrote:<BR>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM,
Christian Siefkes <<A
href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net">christian@siefkes.net</A>>wrote:<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=im>>> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could
help foster your goals?<BR>>> > Where do you draw the
line?<BR>><BR>> good question, I would draw the line with explicitely
'anti-p2p' forces<BR>> such as racism, genderism, etc ..<BR><BR></DIV>Yes,
that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating others as<BR>your
peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist,<BR>anti-semitic
views won't be able to do that, hence their participation is<BR>likely do to
more bad than good.<BR><BR>Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over
their own bodies (while,<BR>of course, men's rights over their bodies are
never put in doubt), hence it<BR>is equally 'anti-p2p'.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><BR>well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this
as an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with catholic
distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing proprety, catholic
worker movement, live in collectives without property etc ..) but find abortion
objectionable because of their egalitarianism .. of course, I disagree with
this, but I find it has little practical importance in the
cooperation<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=im><BR>> a question for you: if you are working on a piece of
free software, and you<BR>> discover your co-developer is KKK, would you
stop working with her?<BR>><BR>> these are by no means easy questions,
FLOSS is full of libertarians, whose<BR>> values I object to
...<BR><BR></DIV>I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his
possible<BR>more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his
insights<BR>about free software. </BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>;
the cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the
whole population ..<BR><BR> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>Some time ago I discovered that the author of a
little<BR>piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing
views:<BR><A href="http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/"
target=_blank>http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/</A> . That didn't
stop me from using<BR>his software, nor from contributing a little patch back
to him, of course.<BR><BR>So I don't think people having personal views
contrary to my own is a<BR>problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in
a project. But on the<BR>other hand I would think it very wrong to invite
people with such<BR>standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints --
which is what<BR>anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea
Party" is<BR>proposing to do.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party
organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force; but
a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source libertarians; they
should disown the label instead of claiming that they are the true TP'ers and
all the others are fake.<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><BR>And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's
participation in a<BR>project would cause black people to leave to product, or
discourage them<BR>from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome,
then it would be<BR>the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the
situation. I hope we<BR>agree on that?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>yes<BR><BR> <BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=im><BR>> what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul,
around the 3<BR>> priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and
3 ??<BR><BR></DIV>"and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine
goals, and it<BR>seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea
Party--near<BR>candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such
alliances<BR>will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase
acceptance<BR>for causes that are anti-emancipatory and
'anti-p2p'.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><BR>ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the
like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I
respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal
political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key goals
<BR><BR>at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation
require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become
strained<BR><BR>Michel<BR><BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=im><BR>Best regards<BR>
Christian<BR><BR>--<BR>|------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- <A
href="mailto:christian@siefkes.net">christian@siefkes.net</A> -------<BR>|
Homepage: <A href="http://www.siefkes.net/"
target=_blank>http://www.siefkes.net/</A> | Blog: <A
href="http://www.keimform.de/"
target=_blank>http://www.keimform.de/</A><BR>| Peer
Production Everywhere: <A
href="http://peerconomy.org/wiki/"
target=_blank>http://peerconomy.org/wiki/</A><BR>|----------------------------------
OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 --<BR></DIV>It is only the identification of a Them
that makes it possible for us to<BR>live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa
or the death of thousands of<BR>children each day from curable diseases. The
existence of capitalism is<BR>conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of
our feelings ... that<BR>enables us to erect private morality into a wall to
keep out the pain of<BR>the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity
against the dulling of<BR>feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism
possible.<BR> -- John Holloway, Change the
World Without Taking
Power<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
Foundation - Mailing list<BR><A href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net"
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target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
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