Yes, agreed, what concerns the initial impression, and buzzwords.<div><br></div><div>With all the advertisement continually flowing through different forms,</div><div>including through text,</div><div>personally I try to continually filter out of it ideas one may be interested in,</div>
<div>while trying not to fall in certain traps.</div><div><br></div><div>In this case, "basic income" , and setting up a limit to wealth accumulation.</div><div><br></div><div>My feeling is that a lot of people get their money from promoting/advertising themselves , their products, or their services, using various buzzwords, even if it does not correspond to the reality of the outcomes. As if what mattered, to have access to funds, is not reality, but appearance.</div>
<div><br></div><div>( actually, I even hear that even the p2pfoundation is critizised for not being distributed itself, although I personally accept that it is possible to move towards an intention, and that the p2pfoundation people and Michel Bauwens built a clearinghouse and a convergence point for topics and people interested or related to distributed approaches, and in this reaches an objective and offers opportunities in moving in a certain direction )</div>
<div><br></div><div>I do not know if it is the case with this particular writer/engineer,</div><div>yet I guess it can help for credibility to get out of one's isolation</div><div>and , perhaps, interact on lists such as this one, to find out how to collaborate around certain ideas.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I guess what I mention may be identified with community building</div><div><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck#Community_Building">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck#Community_Building</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>I used to get in touch with people I did not know to invite them to online conversations.</div><div>Though I tend to do it less, perhaps someone here wants to invite this "socioeconomic democracy" person to participate to conversations on this list ?</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 2:04 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
I continue to find it odd that an engineer claims to be able to produce wonderous social prestidigitation with his engineering skills, and yet he seems to have no references to or points of contact with those who have placed political economy front and center to their research and discourse. It seems like another bit of extraterrestrial pop-economics. There seems to be continuous stream of these people, demanding credibility though they demonstrate essentially none. The excerpt seems packed with buzzwords and soothing pseudo mantras such after reading it twice, I still have little idea what is being communicated other than the usual murmuring of bait and switch/conflation. While I understand the hopefulness which such promotional material is intended to raise, it is still well outside of any community of peer review and confirmation. Graeber in contrast has down his homemwork and is part of a radical anthropology et al discourse as an intellectual with integrity.<br>
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Tadit<div class="im"><br>
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On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:16:29 -0500, Dante-Gabryell Monson <<a href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com" target="_blank">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">
Coincidentally with recent replies<br>
- I feel like emphasizing on an excerpt from this email :<br>
<br></div>
" *Socioeconomic Democracy* is a theoretically consistent and practically<div class="im"><br>
implementable socioeconomic system wherein there exist both some form and<br></div>
amount of locally appropriate *Universally Guaranteed Personal Income* and<br>
some form and amount of locally appropriate *Maximum Allowable Personal<br>
Wealth*, with both the lower bound on personal material poverty and the<br>
upper bound on personal material wealth *set and adjusted democratically by<br>
all participants of that democratic society*. "<div class="im"><br>
<br>
On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>><u></u>wrote:<br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">
<br>
<br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: Rob George <<a href="mailto:georgecsds@aol.com" target="_blank">georgecsds@aol.com</a>><br>
Date: Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 12:26 PMRob George<br></div>
Center for the Study of Democratic Societies<<a href="http://www.centersds.com/" target="_blank">http://www.<u></u>centersds.com/</a>><div><div class="h5"><br>
~~~~~<br>
We respectfully desire to introduce you to Socioeconomic Democracy, an<br>
advanced socioeconomic system which can and eventually will significantly<br>
help to realize your, and eventually all humanity's, legitimate thirst for<br>
universal justice, democracy, peace and well being. We commit to being<br>
available to you for any assistance, clarification, further general<br>
development, and specific application you may desire and request.<br>
<br>
We further emphasize that there are many required changes to existing<br>
politico-socio-economic systems. One is the definition of money and<br>
wealth, and another is the distribution of same. Happily noting that there<br>
are a number of thoughtful contributors in our group to the first area of<br>
necessary improvement, this particular discussion considers the second.<br>
<br>
The purpose of this Introduction to the work of the Center for the Study<br>
of Democratic Societies is twofold. First, it is to inform (or acknowledge<br>
agreement with) you that there are indeed rational, just, democratic, and<br>
peacefully realizable solutions to the world’s increasingly painful, unjust<br>
and unnecessary societal problems. Secondly, it is to invite you to<br>
participate in the democratic resolution of these unnecessary interlinked<br>
problems.<br>
<br>
As John Kenneth Galbraith laconically observed, “The conventional view<br>
serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.” Yet the mishmash<br>
of conventional views, both amateur(ish) and professional(ish), is<br>
increasingly being seen and acknowledged to be the root cause of society’s<br>
needless and costly pain.<br>
<br>
The incompatible clamor for reduction of national, state, regional and<br>
municipal monetary debt, while insisting upon the provision of increased<br>
necessary governmental services for the already rich or hapless poor; the<br>
demand for reduced local crime and killings with “cost-saving” and<br>
"deficit-reduction" police layoffs, while tolerating/advocating increased<br>
global crime and killings with mercenary/military-industrial buildup; the<br>
plethora of unearned bonuses of nearsighted Banksters and brutal<br>
bludgeoning of necessary Budgets; the crescendo of cries for “unregulated”<br>
personal profit possibilities attempting to drown out the chorus seeking<br>
safe working conditions in dangerous, life-threatening and life-killing<br>
employment; the demand for more jobs, while neglecting the onslaught of<br>
economically efficient (and profitable, for whom?) technological<br>
advancement; the truly sad yet farcical salary conflicts between private<br>
and public sector wage earners, unionize or otherwise, surreptitiously<br>
encouraged by the economically comfortable who, equipped with<br>
"theoretically justifying Economics Texts" care about the welfare of<br>
neither; the increasingly familiar statistic that the “top” 1% of most any<br>
population controls more wealth than the “bottom” 90%, serving as a point<br>
of pride for a non-thinking citizenry of a laudably self-interested society<br>
espousing a contempt for a meaningful minimum wage; the increasing quibble<br>
between those who claim raising the retirement age and those who suggest<br>
reducing the retirement age can "help" solve the “lack of jobs” problem,<br>
while neither side considers either the advancement in automation or the<br>
rape and reduction in natural resources; the impossibility of unlimited<br>
growth on a limited planet; the so-called "Offshoring of jobs and<br>
personal/corporate profits; the unconscionable Acts of Empire; the obscene<br>
acts of unconscious politicians and on and on, all add to the confusion<br>
and deadly conflict of humanity.<br>
<br>
Unexpected (by some) or otherwise (by others), and certainly right on cue,<br>
the enigmatic (to some) and perfectly understandable (to others), global<br>
#OWS respectfully and emphatically struggles to present and facilitate the<br>
necessity and inevitability of Fundamental Global Change.<br>
Clear and unambiguous definition of these and numerous other critical<br>
matters is, of course, essential, if meaningful progress is to be<br>
realized. The definition of Socioeconomic Democracy, an advanced,<br>
fundamentally just and democratic socioeconomic system follows. It is on<br>
the basis of this definition of Socioeconomic Democracy that a<br>
straightforward politico-socio-economic Platform can be and has been<br>
articulated. It is further the case that this Democratic Socioeconomic<br>
Platform has been adopted by a presently existing political party and is<br>
now being considered for adoption by other peacefully progressive political<br>
parties about the globe.<br>
<br></div></div>
*Socioeconomic Democracy* is a theoretically consistent and practically<div class="im"><br>
implementable socioeconomic system wherein there exist both some form and<br></div>
amount of locally appropriate *Universally Guaranteed Personal Income*and some form and amount of locally appropriate<br>
*Maximum Allowable Personal Wealth*, with both the lower bound on<div class="im"><br>
personal material poverty and the upper bound on personal material wealth<br></div>
*set and adjusted democratically by all participants of that democratic<br>
society*.<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
As described at length elsewhere, Socioeconomic Democracy both creates<br>
economic incentive and provides necessary monetary funds to cause<br>
significant reduction in an almost surprisingly diverse array of<br>
unnecessary yet painful and deadly individual, societal and global<br>
problems. These problems are produced by currently inadequate, inaccurate<br>
and/or inconsistent assumptions, theories and practices of contemporary<br>
Economics and Politics. These unnecessary problems can be eliminated by a<br>
thoughtful and resolute application of meaningful Democracy.<br>
<br>
These intimately intertwined problems include (but are by no means limited<br>
to) those familiar ones associated with: automation, computerization and<br>
robotization; budget deficits and national debts; bureaucracy; maltreatment<br>
of children; crime and punishment; development (sustainable or otherwise);<br>
ecology, environment, resources and pollution; education; the elderly; the<br>
feminine majority; inflation; international conflict; intranational<br>
conflict; involuntary employment; involuntary unemployment; labor strife<br>
and strikes; sick medical and health care; military metamorphosis; natural<br>
disasters; pay justice; planned obsolescence; political participation;<br>
poverty; racism; sexism; untamed technology; and the General Welfare.<br>
<br>
Memorably expressing his mixed emotions regarding the troubling topic, Sir<br>
Winston did indeed observe "[T]hat democracy is the worst form of<br>
government except for all the others that have been tried." From Aeons<br>
before Churchill to this day, humans and their ancestors have grappled with<br>
the virtues and vices of tyrannies and "class warfare" imposed by<br>
individual dictators, small groups of elites, sizable minorities, and large<br>
majorities.<br>
<br>
A successfully functioning Democracy requires, by definition, at least a<br>
majority of informed and thoughtful citizens participating in the political<br>
process in a wide variety of ways, ranging from essential theoretical<br>
developments to myriad practical activities. Those interested in<br>
contributing, in any sense, to the further development and realization of<br>
the ideas and benefits presented here, which are applicable throughout the<br>
world, are urged to get in contact with us, when you are ready. We further<br>
wish to reiterate our desire and determination to collaborate with all<br>
other individuals and organizations committed to all the other necessary<br>
aspects of the general survival and healthy developmental challenge<br>
confronting the human race.<br>
<br>
The following are a few relevant links connecting to material describing<br>
the evolution and exposition of the theory and practice of Socioeconomic<br>
Democracy:<br>
<br>
1) Center for the Study of Democratic Societies<br></div></div>
<a href="http://www.CenterSDS.com" target="_blank">http://www.CenterSDS.com</a> <<a href="http://www.centersds.com/" target="_blank">http://www.centersds.com/</a>><br>
<br>
2) *Socioeconomic Democracy: An Advanced Socioeconomic System*<div class="im"><br>
<a href="http://www.centersds.com/thebook.htm" target="_blank">http://www.centersds.com/<u></u>thebook.htm</a><br>
<br>
3) “A Democratic Socioeconomic Platform, in search of a Democratic<br>
Political Party”<br>
<a href="http://www.centersds.com/dsep.html" target="_blank">http://www.centersds.com/dsep.<u></u>html</a><br>
<br>
4) “Socioeconomic Democracy: A Nonkilling, Life-Affirming and Enhancing<br>
Psycho-Politico-Socio-Economic System”<br>
Global Nonkilling Working Paper #4|2010<br>
<a href="http://www.nonkilling.org/node/20" target="_blank">http://www.nonkilling.org/<u></u>node/20</a><br>
<br>
5) “Socioeconomic Democracy: A Nonkilling, Life-Affirming and Enhancing<br>
Psycho-Politico-Socio-Economic System”<br>
Also appearing in PelicanWeb’s Journal of Sustainable Development<br>
<a href="http://www.pelicanweb.org/solisustv06n10page2robleygeorge.html" target="_blank">http://www.pelicanweb.org/<u></u>solisustv06n10page2robleygeorg<u></u>e.html</a><br>
<br>
6) A list of the historical development of the ideas of Socioeconomic<br>
Democracy, as presented by this writer, starting in 1968, is available at<br>
<a href="http://www.centersds.com/biblio.htm" target="_blank">http://www.centersds.com/<u></u>biblio.htm</a><br>
<br>
7) A Biography of this writer is available at<br>
<a href="http://www.centersds.com/bio.htm" target="_blank">http://www.centersds.com/bio.<u></u>htm</a><br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Robley E. George<br>
<a href="mailto:georgeCSDS@aol.com" target="_blank">georgeCSDS@aol.com</a><br>
Director, Center for the Study of Democratic Societies<br></div>
<a href="http://www.CenterSDS.com" target="_blank">http://www.CenterSDS.com</a> <<a href="http://www.centersds.com/" target="_blank">http://www.centersds.com/</a>><div class="im"><br>
Coordinador, Nonkilling Economics and Business Research Committee<br>
<a href="http://www.nonkilling.org/node/7" target="_blank">http://www.nonkilling.org/<u></u>node/7</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
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Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss:<br>
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</div></blockquote></blockquote>
</blockquote></div><br></div>